Madame Tussauds London

[Pennywise]

[quote=""DiogoJ42""]
I find Justin Bieber offensive. Can we have his waxwork melted down please?[/quote]

Comparing Justin Bieber to Hitler. Smoooooth.

[formula1fan]

Whilst the two customers who performed the Nazi salutes were a little bit stupid in what they did, I don't really feel that the Israeli couple had much of a right to complain, as it seems to be a little bit of fun that was taken the wrong way. Put simply, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's essentially what it boils down to. And Gloomy's right in saying that Hitler, no matter how awful the things he did were, is one of the most important historical figures of the 20th century. And why does it not surprise me that a story like this appeared in the Fail?

[DiogoJ42]

[quote=""D4n""]Comparing Justin Bieber to Hitler. Smoooooth.
[/quote]
Godwin's Law doesn't apply if you are actually discussing the Nazis

[.Will]

Right, I am going to be a little bit blunt here. Anyone who finds Hitler offensive in my eyes is a little bit stupid as Gloomy said Hitler is a major historic figure I doubt there would be any complaints if Stalin was in there (he might be I have no idea) though what he did to his own people was brutal and sadistic after all the Soviets took over many of the Nazi death camps and used them to imprison many of their own soldiers after the war. Many of these were worked to death and the ones that survived were not released until the late 50s.

Hitler's ideas were outright and his actions towards many people’s were beyond contemplation but if anything I think this incident shows the naivety of the people performing the salute despite the fact they are doing it for shizzles and giggles. They are not how ever Neo-Nazis and probably don't share the same beliefs.

I would (and do despite the fact it's their choice yadda yadda) take offence by Neo-Nazi's and their beliefs now wouldn't it make more sense taking offense to those who actually follow Nazism and share the same belief that Jews are sub-human and the Third Reich will rule for a thousand years shouldn't their time be spent fighting and complain where the problem lies than a bunch of idiots thinking they are smart by sticking their arms up in the air. Which in essence is meaningless.

Hitler himself is not offensive he called on others who willingly performed the actions that he asked. I am not defending him or condoning the Nazi parties actions at all but that's the point. He was a ruthless leader I think that people should be educated to see what people are capable of but a waxwork model does not do that.

[Sam]

[quote=""Gloomy Dude""]Like it or not, Hitler is a historical figure. His impact on the 20th century, no matter how awful, is too great to simply ignore. Some people need to get a life.[/quote]
TIME Magazine have a similar problem. Every year for the past hundred years they announce a "man of the year" (now person of the year) which is meant to be the person on earth who had the greatest impact on that year's events, good or evil.

In 1938 it was given to Hitler, 1939 and 1942 to Stalin and in 1979 to Ayatollah Khomeini. The problem is the magazine are scared of controversy and offending people, so in 2001 they awarded it to New York mayor Rudy Giuliani rather than Osama Bin Laden, even though he clearly had more impact on the news. They were scared of people mistaking it for an honour or award and writing some outraged rubbish like this couple have done here.

[nickhutson]

I wandered around Tussauds yesterday as I had 2 hours to kill in London - and there was a staff member standing by Hitler watching everyone. Interesting!

[Rollercoaster5000]

Typical Joooz and their whinging :P
To me this is a big issue, being Jewish and a supporter of Israel. Although I'm someone who despises Hitler and his Nazi scum... I don't think there's anything really wrong with there being a wax work of Hitler, that particular model was never intended to 'glorify' Hitler so there shouldn't be a reason to whine over it. He was a historical and well known ruler so it would make sense for there to be a wax work of him at the Madame Tussauds.

I can see why the couple were upset, many Jews (including myself) are sensitive when it comes to Nazism, the Holocaust etc. I don't think people should be shouting the couple down for finding it offensive. When I see that model I can't help but feel slightly uncomfortable.

Just noticed that elements of this post makes little sense, sorry I'm tired and doing a dozen things at the same time lol

[.Will]

I don't think anyone is having a go at the couple. The fact of the matter is if someone finds a model of Hitler offensive then they have their own right to do so but the point I make is that it is what it is and that is a waxwork model. Now Saddam could be in there and no one would mind yet he used biological weapons against the Kurds. Stalin (as I have said) could be in there and no one would mind yet he killed millions of German and Soviet prisoners after the Second World War. Many historical leaders are in there and yet many have killed people ruthlessly or lead their armies into battle to fight. Churchill is in there (I think) yet he ordered the attack to destroy the French Naval fleet killing many French sailors to stop the Germans getting them. So the question I ask is who really is the evil one here? A waxwork of Hitler? Certainly not, it should educate people and show what humans are capable of but it doesn't.

Many people including the two people doing the salute see it as an opportunity to have a laugh. What you have to remember here is that these are not Neo-Nazi's they are not 'Skin-heads' they are just a couple of lads having a laugh. A joke of which is a little over the line for my liking. Now this doesn't glorify Hitler nor does it the Nazi party these lads probably only know about the salute and nothing more of the Second World War which of course is wrong. People should learn and thus never forgetting and remembering the lives that were lost will help prevent it happening again. But this is never the case many people don't know about the Armenian genocide of 1918 or the Rwandan genocide of 1995 or the Japanese atrocities of the 30s and 40s at places like Unit 731.

Now what people forget is that everybody has their dark side even the people perceived as heroes yet there waxworks are loved and adored by all. If Hitler’s waxwork was an educational piece then I would be happy but it isn’t. It’s just Hitler standing in a room near the Queen. The problem with MT is that there is no education behind the waxworks and so people will take advantage and perform the salute. It isn’t a disgrace it’s just shows the naivety of these uneducated buffoons.

I really don’t think this has anymore meaning than that. Going into depths about the Holocaust and Israel is a little too far after all it is just some lads saluting. I can understand why people would take offence at the salute but not at the waxwork. It should be kept and I see no reason why they should take it out. There are however many exhibits at other museums highlighting the atrocities of the Holocaust which hopefully will show the people that as funny as it might be at the time people will find the salute offensive … But not the waxwork.

[Sam]

Isn't it time we all got over World War 2...?

[.Will]

Well yes and no. Many people are still alive who lived through it that will be passed out down the generations like a splash in a pond until it doesn't seem as important.

People never get over history especially when it is so personal to them I mean it is a British victory. I don't think people should just "get over it" to be honest.

[Sam]

People got over Titantic enough by 1997 that it was seen suitable for a film purely of entertainment value. People would never consider making a joke about the Romans or Genghis Khan even slightly controversial, even though both killed thousands of people.

It's been 70 years now and nearly everyone who fought in that war is dead. Germany is now a modern democratic country so why do we have to keep dragging it up every year to such a huge degree? Obviously this does not apply to the Jewish community. But I don't think it's really fair on Germans to keep reminding them of this constantly.

[.Will]

History is written by the victor Sam. There will be parts in German history that will be glorified of course in the Second World War there were many amazing German victories such as their push through Russia and they were extremely advanced in their weapons and tactics yet alls we hear is how the plucky Brits and the strong (yet arrogant) Yanks defeated the German army. If the Germans had of won the Second World War (despite how stupid it sounds) we would hear about how an advanced 'race' conquered Europe.

Also I don't think you can compare a disaster be it natural or manmade to a war. War sparks controversies and one 'side' will always come out on top. Disasters linger in people’s minds but they are forgotten and the Titanic disaster was forgotten long before the film was made. Disasters are not glorified like war because there are no winners.

Many of the service men and women are still living. You forget that many civilians living in Britain at the time played a big part in the war children were evacuated, women were employed in factories, men both old and young served it is a prime example of Brits being Brits and shows their mentality. Despite this I think less and less people care about our history today I mean looking at the 'youth' of today I would bet many people don't know who Hitler is.

Russia is now a democratic federation yet I wonder how many people still think of them as communist? Petty as it may sound yes the Nazi party is dead but like Russia's communist days the Second (and First) World War are a huge part of their history. By your logic you could ask is it fair to keep reminding the American's about their defeat in Vietnam? The answer is either yes or no. I suppose you could be fair and 'cut them a break' but many Germans are aware of their history and don't condone it we learn and understand our history even the dark sides so why shouldn't they.

The crusades are a dark part of our history yet we feel comfortable talking about them and that will work in a similar way for the Germans. In 1000 years the two World Wars will be a small part of history. The older things are the more unimportant they appear.

... Or so is my understanding.

[Magrathea]

I'm glad that someone else raised the example of the Titanic for this purpose, as for me, while I myself aren't a fan of humour about tragic events, it is the archetypal example of desensitisation.

Because the fact is that there'll be so many people who will tread very carefully when trying to talk about the war and those involved, but would then happily turn around and make a joke using the Titanic. It's been dramatised a million times; to most, their associations with the word are far flung from 1912. So, essentially, it's not okay to joke about people being killed when they were setting out to kill other people, but it is okay to joke about the deaths of a lot of people, many of whom were setting off to begin new lives for themselves, and most of whom never made it?

That said, I don't think there is that much sensitivity regarding WWII with the majority of people any more. Take a look at Godwin's Law: Adolf Hitler has become the archetypal evil character, ready to be wheeled out for inappropriate comparison after inappropriate comparison, but he is a historical figure now. If Tussauds' guests want to mimic the action most famously associated with him, then why is that any worse than posing with one of the mass murderers in the Chamber Of Horrors? I highly doubt the figure has become a centre of pilgrimage for neo-nazis.

Personally, I think it's about time that schools started teaching children about WWII from a globalised perspective, not merely a local one. Germany is such a beautiful and culturally-rich country, and the complete one-sidedness of lessons, combined with no attempt to dispel the notion that modern Germany is a horrific place to this day, and that all Germans are evil, raise generation after generation of stereotypical morons, who still find it hilarious to "mention the war" every time a German is brought up.

[TB2]

[quote=""Sam""]People got over Titantic enough by 1997 that it was seen suitable for a film purely of entertainment value. People would never consider making a joke about the Romans or Genghis Khan even slightly controversial, even though both killed thousands of people.

It's been 70 years now and nearly everyone who fought in that war is dead. Germany is now a modern democratic country so why do we have to keep dragging it up every year to such a huge degree? Obviously this does not apply to the Jewish community. But I don't think it's really fair on Germans to keep reminding them of this constantly.[/quote]

Surely it's because the second world war for a lot of people made the biggest impact on the 20th century. You say nearly everyone who fought in the war is dead? What about all the people living in the UK at the time and felt the effect of the Blitz, the children who saw their dads go to war and never came back... My dad grew up during the second world war, he still remembers it. Surely it's not a far enough stretch that the war still has relevance today, that we should never forget the history of our world..

I dunno, people still remember the Romans, the Aztecs, the Vikings, all the things that have happened in history. Maybe it's because I watch Doctor Who though.

To be honest, on the Hitler issue I can understand the disgust. I don't think the letter back to the Israeli couple was particularly poor though. Maddame Tussauds is right, saluting with Hitler is no different to doing a V sign with Churchill.

[Sam]

This goes on.

The Evening Standard today devoted the entire page three to this non-story, basically giving MT a full page advert without having done anything bad themselves.

[spoiler:3nn8a7ox][quote=""Evening Standard""]Tussauds puts a guard on Adolf but visitors still give Heil Hitler salutes
Laura Roberts
30 Aug 2011

Madame Tussauds has been forced to employ a guard to prevent tourists making offensive Hitler salutes next to a waxwork of the dictator.

But London's most popular tourist attraction today had to admit the move has failed - as these pictures show.

Visitors to the Marylebone Road attraction were repeatedly seen making the Heil Hitler gesture even though the staff inspector was nearby.

Tourists on Friday saw one young woman make a mock-Nazi salute while imitating the dictator's infamous moustache. She was not prevented from doing so by any staff.

It comes after the company was forced to apologise to an Israeli family visiting London after they witnessed other visitors performing Nazi salutes next to the model this month.

When the family, who wish to remain anonymous, first complained and asked for the waxwork to be removed they were told the company was "apolitical" and that it "absolutely defends the right of our visitors to make such choices for themselves, as long as they behave responsibly".

The Israeli mother told the Jewish Chronicle: "My grandfather was in a concentration camp and all his family were murdered there. It's very personal to us. I thought about my grandfather and how he would feel."

The attraction then did a U-turn and assigned a member of staff to patrol the world leaders section of the exhibition to prevent people causing offence.

Spokeswoman Liz Edwards said: "We are just as upset as the Israeli family who saw the behaviour. What is more worrying is that children just don't understand how disrespectful it is.

"There is a person in that area to ensure this doesn't happen. We will probably put [the model] in an area where guests can't physically stand next to him and interact with him."

Today however it emerged that the move has had little effect - and Madame Tussauds admitted that the plan had failed.

Ms Edwards said the staff member on duty had been "distracted" by other tourists asking questions, and said it was up to guests to take responsibility for their own actions.

"If we see someone doing this we will stop it but guests always have to take responsibility. It comes down to their own judgment and their own parental responsibility," she said.

The model of the Führer had previously been displayed behind glass because of frequent attacks by visitors who spat on it or pelted it with eggs.

It was moved into the Great Hall in 2002 to stand alongside Winston Churchill and other leaders from history. A waxwork of Hitler has been on display at Madame Tussauds in London since 1933, and has often been the target of vandalism.

A branch of the attraction in Berlin also has a model of the Nazi dictator, although it shows him as a defeated figure in a bunker. That model is kept behind glass to prevent people taking photographs.[/quote][/spoiler:3nn8a7ox]

Sentences like "Madame Tussauds has been forced to employ a guard" make me think...



The Israeli couple wish to remain anonymous? Oh really? Basically Merlin have managed to get an absolute ton more media coverage than any of their normal PR stunts do and they haven't even done anything wrong. This hasn't been a problem since 1933 so why suddenly now?!

I smell BS.

[nickhutson]

I saw the "guard" (i.e.: employee) when I went. I feel bad now because I asked him where the lavatory was...

[Benzin]

If Merlin had any sense they'd put Hitler in a cupboard to make it all hip and connected to TV...

[Sam]

I was there yesterday a few minutes before closing time, when it was almost dead. To be fair to them, they did have two assistants hovering around. And I did see them stop two foreign tourists from doing a Hitler salute. It's possibly it's both true, and Merlin are milking it as a PR stunt at the same time...

[nickhutson]

I don't think it's a big PR Stunt - as they haven't put it on their facebook or twitter page; it hasn't been on TV news or anything like that. It's just a very Daily Mail article. The staff are just there to stop it happening.

[Blaze]

If I was Merlin, I'd milk it, too. They have every right to. If you don't like people doing it, complain there and then, don't make such a fuss over it. Merlin have been given a solid gold opportunity to both put the sad couple in their place and get a free PR boost. They'd have been mad not to.