Negativity

[jhick]

OK, so I have been a member of these forums as long as I can remember, I rarely post in them and just read. But now I have just got to the point where I cannot stand the negativity anymore!

Back in the day, yes there were negative things said (especially when the towers went through their Tussauds bad couple of years before Merlin took over) but everything was usually positive and most of the time 'bantering' off each other. Now its just everyone having a go at each other! Yes, I haven't been to the towers this year, so I don't know what the new attractions are like, but looking at the pictures they are themed incredibly well - which everyone on here has been having a massive go at Alton for many many years during the Tussauds era - can't we be happy that Merlin has started to do something good? Thirteen was well themed, Battle Galleons was well themed, The Swarm at Thorpe I think looks amazing, the SeaLife centre I think looks fantastic as well as Ice Age.

What people seem to forget is that Subterra is just a ABC drop tower, and I've been on them before, and yes they can pack a punch at the top of the drop sometimes, but they are not incredible and I think people forget this. From what has been said, it seems like they have improved the overall ride experience, which always happens. One thing I have learnt - never go to these places on the opening days, wait a few weeks and things usually change with feedback. The Towers cannot do anything until they have received feedback from their customers which the park is designed for, the general public. Every ride gets better as the years go on. I did not think Thirteen was the best roller coaster I have ever been on when I first rode it, but I haven't been on it for two years now, and when I go in a couple of weeks, I think that Thirteen is the ride I am most looking forward to riding - because its different and unique. I cannot go on a ride like that anywhere else in the world! Alton are good as making unique and different things.

The trouble is that everyone hypes themselves up over something and they have a year to think 'what it is going to be like' and them obviously when it opens are massively let down in comparison to their own beliefs. Just be happy for once and be open-minded about things, and if you are going to shoot it down, do it in a formalised manner. Don't go in expecting the world of things - you should know the marketing at Alton Towers is on extreme levels and to take everything with a pinch of salt - but THAT IS WHAT MARKETING IS FOR to drag people in to the resort, and it works! Their marketing department do a bloody good job at their job, which they are paid to do!

I just cannot stand the negativity on these boards anymore and I wish the moderators could try and control it a bit more?

People say the 'magic has left Alton', well I can certainly say the Magic has left these forums...a long time ago.

Sorry for the rant, I needed to get it off my chest.

[Satch]

I don't understand your point. You want moderators to have more control over people having a point of view?

If you can't stand the negativity then don't read the forums. Don't tell members to stop being negative about a theme park they are losing passion for. Have a look at the cause, not the symptoms

[jhick]

I'm not saying about getting the moderators to do anything. Because they can't. I was just expressing my opinions.

And there is a perfect example of what this board is like now - lashing out at other members.

And that is what makes me sad of when it never used to be like that on here. I read the boards to get an insight to what's going on in the park, I don't really mind people's opinions, everyone is entitled to their own opinions - but that is a perfect example of what I am talking about, people just lash out at others whilst slating Alton Towers non stop.

[Vanessa Feltz]

Take it from me, I see your points myself.

However, the boards are filled with people expressing how they feel with the park, but that's something that is supplied by own user content.

We can't change that, no-one can, if someones not happy with something, they will say it, making others feel more inclined to agree and want to state their own unhappiness.

It's basically a game of sit down and carry on, argue your points, tell people what you think is great about the park.

I've already 'quit' due to my own upset with the forum, however some topics you just can't stay away from.

[Joelio]

People are only negative because the park is going downhill

However with the amount of work Towers are putting in for Nemesis: Sub Terra after they were slated at the start of the season is slowly building confidence in them once again. I think people were fed up of being promised amazing attractions and then Towers (or Merlin) failing to deliver them. Everyone should be entitled to an opinion though, no matter how positive or negative it may be and I find your comments on others negativity to be far too meta to contibute to any real discussions.

On a forum such as this though, if there's something I like and/or dislike at a theme park i'll happily write about it at my discretion and I don't think being told to be 'less negative' aids anything. You'd be equally annoyed if someone told you to be 'less positive'.

[Tom G]

Some people need to seriously de-sensitise themselves from reading criticism of Britain's most successful theme park. It has high standards and ultimately deserves scrutiny when it isn't pleasing people anymore.

As one of these so-called negative people, I have never been warned or even spoken to about my conduct from the forum team.

Apart from literally one or two people that have resorted to pathetic sarcasm or personal insults, I have no hard feelings to any of the numerous people I've had prolonged debates with, and I'd hope they wouldn't hold anything against me either. I've never been PM'd by anyone taking issue with me either.

To be crude, you need to man up a bit. This is an excellently-moderated forum and we are lucky to have quite a liberal team in many regards. You should visit other forums where personal abuse and gang warfare against individuals is rife, if you want an example of unpleasant message boards.

[mrbrightside]

The forum, like any forum, is what you make of it. If you feel it is too negative, be more positive personally. It won't change how others feel but it may adjust your feelings about the place.

We all bring something individual to the forum. And without everyone's varying thoughts and opinions TTF would be an incredibly boring place to be! While negative discussions over things can be going on in one thread, positive things take place in another.

As I started the post with, the forum is what you make of it as a user. If you personally feel the balance is skewed to a negative side then go out there and make a thread that is positive about something. People may disagree with your thoughts but every user is free to feel what they like about Towers.

tl;dr - discussion FTW. Make a positive thread.


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[Vanessa Feltz]

To re-iterate what others have said, if others were to be positive completely, there would be nothing to discuss.

This forum thrives on the opinions and discussion of others. Just argue your point.

[Squiggles]

This issue has been raised a few times recently and there probably is some validity to the comment, though perhaps not in an entirely black and white sense.

I think there is a fine line between negativity towards the park (or aspects of the park, which aren't so successful) and being negative towards other members with different opinions to your own.

I do sometimes feel that some members (often without realising they are doing it and certainly not intentionally) scoot a little too close to this line for comfort. I think it has been especially noticable of late due to the polarising force of Sub-Terra, where so many people had such a negative reaction to the new attraction that for the few who (for their own entirely valid reasons) actually enjoyed the ride, in the heat of debate could have felt at times like they were being ganged up on, even though this never the intention of other posters.

It's a two way street really. It doesn't take 2 minutes when posting to re-read what you've put and consider whether it might be taken the wrong way and tone it down if necessary. But equally when reading the forum if we see something that looks like a personal attack, we should really  take what is written with a pinch of salt as 9 times out of 10 it is very unlikely that it was written with that intention.

[Ritadz]

I'm guessing I'm one of these evil, dastardly posters that can see the park that I love's faults with a realistic view, yet because I don't like the idea of having to leave at 4PM because "Weekdays in September are usually not as busy as weekends in August, so of course the park can open for 6 hours and still charge a stupidly expensive entrance fee" or because I'm not delighted with the lack the of money given to the entertainment team I get branded as negative, right? I'm not negative, I'm realistic.

Secondly, are you seriously suggesting you want the forum team to remove or edit posts that you deem as "negative"? This is TTF, not North Korea. 

To echo what Satch said, if you don't like it, don't read it. Simple as.

[DiogoJ42]

I find it interesting that most of the conflict recently comes not from the "negative" camp, but rather from the "positive" people not liking what the "negative" members are saying.

I have been told many times recently that "if you don't like Towers, leave the forum, we won't miss you". Hardly a fair point, from either side of the argument. I could say "if you don't like hearing the truth... etc" But I won't, tempting as it is, because everyone is entitled to an opinion.
Part of discussion is exchanging views. If someone's opinion is opposite to your own, trying to change their mind is only going to cause conflict. Better to simply agree to disagree and move on to another topic.

I would also add that while Alton Towers is still the best UK park, having just got back from my second trip to Europa Park, it really looks like a dump in comparison. This may be part of the cause of negativity... More and more members are broadening our horizons and exploring parks on the continent (let's ignore the USA for now). Once you have seen how truely awe inspiring German parks can be, it does make you wonder why our own parks don't match up to it. Especially when the company running them claim to be "second only to Disney".
We have seen what a truely "magical" resort can be like, and are angry that our beloved park, far from striving to achive that level, seems to be slipping down the proverbial U bend.

[Dormiens-Dave]

My simple view, the negativity towards the resort is mostly justified by their own actions though as always their are members at either extreme of the positive/ negative scale. However the personal attacks seem to be increasing which seems to co-incide with a large portion of the team being on holiday.

I will re-iterate now personal attacks are not welcome and as of Monday most of the team will be back in the UK and warnings will be issued if we think people step over the line....

[haydn!]

The negativity can be frustrating, I feel it too. But then, it's very often justified.

From time to time, things do seem to get blown out of proportion, the decision by Merlin to charge pass holders car parking for example, but then that's just my opinion. Other people's opinions differ. That's the only point of an open community forum. That passion, honesty and difference of opinion is what makes Towers Times so great!

If you're looking for a forum, where every move or motion is praised, no matter what. You're in the wrong place.

[Nightfall]

The odd thing is I don’t think the negativity against the park is the real issue. There is a very snappy attitude when replying to some comments which is completely unnecessary. Now I’ve made both negative and positive comments about the park, I like to think of myself as objective with a dash of personal bias. But sometimes I’ve said something that has received a very derogative response, almost as if the user wants an argumentative reply from me.

I’d agree with Squiggles that a quick read of your posts as if you’re the person you were making a point against is a good way to tell if the post sounds like it’s aimed at the issue or the person. Take this topic as a good example. How many posts that are being made here are aimed at the subject of negativity and how many are actually aimed at jhick? The same goes for Tugboat’s leaving topic which actually highlighted this issue but turned into a flame war against him.

Take this example from Tom:

Some people need to seriously de-sensitise themselves from reading criticism of Britain's most successful theme park. It has high standards and ultimately deserves scrutiny when it isn't pleasing people anymore.

Now I know what you're trying to say about Alton being successfully and therefore you feel it is fine to criticise them. I agree with that but reading this as if I was jhick I would see it as if I was being blamed for feeling the negativity. This I think is the real reason the forum feels so negative, not because of anything that’s happening at the park.

Bare in mind Tom this isn’t aimed solely at you; more that you gave me a perfect example of a post that is coming off as derogative when it doesn’t need to be.

Now a good example of negative comments that I’ve never found derogative would be Diogo’s. Sure he can be a grumpy old git sometimes  :P  but he aims his negativity towards the issue and not at another member (unless of course that member is the issue). Also it's all in a very light hearted manner so even if you do disagree there's no reason to take offence.

[captain]

These topics always frustrate me. Most of the replies are covered above, but just to confirm - it seems your main frustration is that a lot of people's views on this forum don't conform to yours, and therefore you "cannot stand it anymore"?

Seriously? If the negativity wasn't justified, then maybe I could see your frustration. But you must be blind to think that the park is the best it could possibly be. In fact, that notion brings me onto another thing that really pisses me off with some people on the forum. The idea that at least the park have done something or it's better than nothing, you should be grateful or Chessington got nothing this year, at least be happy Alton did - all of those thoughts are in my opinion defeatist and frankly ridiculous. I could make a thread about how I "can't stand it anymore" but I simply remind myself that those thoughts are just other people's opinions. I think Diogo has it pretty much spot on with:

I find it interesting that most of the conflict recently comes not from the "negative" camp, but rather from the "positive" people not liking what the "negative" members are saying.

****.

I'm really not sure what the solution is for you. You present an option:

I wish the moderators could try and control it a bit more?

but shortly after you say

I'm not saying about getting the moderators to do anything. Because they can't.

You're right - if you want this forum to be free and fair and better than the multitude of horrendous forums out there, you have to accept the moderators shouldn't intervene when the party line is not being towed. The above replies have made clear the benefits of a multi-opinion forum so I won't go into it (and surely they didn't have to anyway [in my opinion]).

Squiggles made an excellent point about

being negative towards other members with different opinions to your own.

This is absolutely the truth, but it comes from all directions. I got so sick of being told to shut up and accept that "at least something is happening at all, be grateful etc. etc.; stop being so negative; you shouldn't compare it to Europa it's in a different country" and all that other crap, that I have mostly given up posting in the Alton Towers section of the forum. Depressing, because that is in theory why I am meant to be here.

I used to write really long posts about the place - what I felt they should be doing, how they could improve, what I wanted the new developments (e.g. Thirteen) to be like - but now I genuinely don't feel there is any point. I will be told not to be so negative, not to be unrealistic, and not to hype something up (we should expect things to be crap these days so that we're not disappointed?!). The thing is, I never felt the vast majority were hyping things up, we were just discussing realistic possibilities for things if the budget and care and vision had been there. As they would of in other parks in other countries (Europa, Phantasialand etc. Sorry if you are sick of hearing about them, but they're infinitely better).

As you say, sorry for the rant, I needed to get it off my chest. It wasn't meant as a personal attack - more a rebuttal of the idea that this forum should be a happy place where we don't voice negative criticism. Again, posts like Diogo's, haydn!'s, Ritadz's and Joelio's above are (in my opinion) right - people voice these negative criticisms because they feel the park is going downhill. 99 times out off 100 it is because they care for the park and want it to do well and don't want it to be run solely for the purpose of generating money for an investment firm that frankly doesn't give a crap about the park or about the happiness of the guests, an investment firm that just wants people through the gates and spending vast sums of money, so that they can buy more lame midway attractions with more debt and give the allusion that they are a profitable company with a vast global portfolio (second to Disney! Whooooo) so that when they come to float on the stock market etc., they get vastly inflated share prices and make even more money for their evil Blackstone overlords. Hence spending no money on park maintenance and only on big budget, headline attractions that will temporarily boost attendance for a few months and generate good headlines and gate figures for the investors in this sorry affair. In my opinion.

There's an example of what you might consider an unnecessary, negative attack on the park (or their Merlin bosses - probably the main cause of the problems in the park if we're honest) but really - should I have said nothing at all? Should we just let the colossal management problems slide by the wayside, especially seeing as at least we got four ABC drop towers this year? Should we not have had hopes for a repaint of Oblivion, of Rita, of Air; the fixing of the effects in Duel and Hex and Charlie; the refurbishment of The Flume; non-ridiculous opening hours; non-ridiculous parking fees; some actual quality entertainment on park - because at least we got something this year, we should be grateful?

Obviously this isn't just a reply to jhick - as well as that potentially being a little too harsh on one person, it can apply to many. But it's those kinds of attitudes that made me contemplate leaving (not that I'd bother to tell anyone - it's not really anyone else's problem, plus no-one would care), and that I feel are detrimental to good discussion and as a result detrimental to the quality of the forum as a whole. I tend to linger in the RCT forum more than anywhere these days, simply because it's a nice refuge from the barrage of "invalid" opinions being attacked. The "All Other Parks and Attractions" board is also a favourite of mine, because it shows what can be done if enough care and thought and long-term vision is applied to investments.

Anyway. Good luck in your future time here everybody. Let's hope the park does something spectacular.

Edit: Just read Nightfall's response. You're right - often it becomes unnecessarily personal, which seems to be a result of criticising the person, not the opinion. But I would argue that topics like this aren't attacking the negativity, but the people posting them, and trying to tell people that they should be happy with whatever the park does, which now I reread your comment entirely fits with your first sentence. Maybe I have been critical of jhick in my response rather than the topic at hand - in which case I apologise - but I am trying to raise the point that it is in my opinion unfair and bad for the forum to condemn negativity and the people allegedly posting negative things.

I would argue that if people are finding it difficult to deal with the negativity, they need to consider - is it because they as positive people cannot tolerate it as an attribute; are they so enamoured with the park they hate any criticism of it; or are they so glad to at least get some kind of investment, no matter how lame, that they feel we should all be happy? If it is indeed any of those, then they (to quote Star Wars) need to go home and rethink their lives. And as Ritadz says, they need to be realistic.

On that note, maybe it is us (the so-called negative ones?) who need to be realistic. Maybe we should just accept things will remain fairly crap but we should be pleased regardless, maybe we should accept Oblivion will probably never be repainted, maybe we should accept that Duel and Hex will never properly work, and maybe we should accept Alton will never again be world-class. Maybe that is realistic.

Forgive me for visiting Europa Park this year instead of Alton.

[DiogoJ42]

I used to write really long posts about the place - what I felt they should be doing, how they could improve, what I wanted the new developments (e.g. Thirteen) to be like - but now I genuinely don't feel there is any point. I will be told not to be so negative, not to be unrealistic, and not to hype something up (we should expect things to be crap these days so that we're not disappointed?!). The thing is, I never felt the vast majority were hyping things up, we were just discussing realistic possibilities for things if the budget and care and vision had been there. As they would of in other parks in other countries (Europa, Phantasialand etc. Sorry if you are sick of hearing about them, but they're infinitely better).

So true mate. I've pretty much given up on the Towers topics on TTF these days. Anyone who dares voice an opinion that isn't gushing praise of the park is shouted down and told to "stop being so negative!!111!11!!"

[.Will]

Is it that time already? Yet another one of these topics? ...

I think it's time we became a Europa fansite.

[Tom G]

The odd thing is I don’t think the negativity against the park is the real issue. There is a very snappy attitude when replying to some comments which is completely unnecessary. Now I’ve made both negative and positive comments about the park, I like to think of myself as objective with a dash of personal bias. But sometimes I’ve said something that has received a very derogative response, almost as if the user wants an argumentative reply from me.

I’d agree with Squiggles that a quick read of your posts as if you’re the person you were making a point against is a good way to tell if the post sounds like it’s aimed at the issue or the person. Take this topic as a good example. How many posts that are being made here are aimed at the subject of negativity and how many are actually aimed at jhick? The same goes for Tugboat’s leaving topic which actually highlighted this issue but turned into a flame war against him.

Take this example from Tom:

Some people need to seriously de-sensitise themselves from reading criticism of Britain's most successful theme park. It has high standards and ultimately deserves scrutiny when it isn't pleasing people anymore.

Now I know what you're trying to say about Alton being successfully and therefore you feel it is fine to criticise them. I agree with that but reading this as if I was jhick I would see it as if I was being blamed for feeling the negativity. This I think is the real reason the forum feels so negative, not because of anything that’s happening at the park.

Bare in mind Tom this isn’t aimed solely at you; more that you gave me a perfect example of a post that is coming off as derogative when it doesn’t need to be.

Now a good example of negative comments that I’ve never found derogative would be Diogo’s. Sure he can be a grumpy old git sometimes  :P  but he aims his negativity towards the issue and not at another member (unless of course that member is the issue). Also it's all in a very light hearted manner so even if you do disagree there's no reason to take offence.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that was a derogatory statement in any way. I find it very appropriate given that it was a response to the call for 'moderators to sort out the negativity'.

[mrbrightside]

We all know that a discussion forum relies and thrives on, well, discussion. The trouble is that there is a very fine line between healthy debate and getting personal. The trouble with this is that some people are more sensitive to debate than others.

This can never be 'policed' as such because everyone thinks differently. I know in the past I have written posts that directly debate everything another user has made and I have been accused by them of being too personal and for attacking. Not because I actually was, but because I was forcibly rebutting the points the other person made.

Maybe we all need to look at our posting styles and the way we use the forum. Those who like healthy, heated debate should maybe re-read everything (as suggested above) to check that it won't offend. But equally, those who are maybe scared or put off by long, debated and argumentative posts should maybe adjust their attitude to debate so that it is encouraged rather than just rubbished as 'negativity' or 'personal attack' at the first opportunity.

I know that we are all guilty of both things on here. But debate and discussion needs to be encouraged rather than rubbished. Because it is sad to see members shying away from important discussion topics due to the reactions of others.


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[jhick]

I was just expressing my opinions, that is all. I believe in a good debate, of course I do, what is life without a good debate. But I feel sometimes, when people are going to post about a critism they need to think about the manner they do it in. As I have said, I never post in here, so I (as you keep saying about being sensitive) have never been bitten at but I have watched you lot bite at each other which is what I am saying is sad from a few years back, that is all I am saying, because I just felt that in the Alton Towers section of this forum is a harsh place now. Everything is so negative about each other and the park. Maybe my first post was not well written and caused some confusion, who knows. The comment about the moderators was written in jest, as my second comment said, that would and could never happen - and I would not expect it to do. This is a discussion forum afterall.

Don't get me wrong, there are many negative things about the park, and in my time I have had my grumbles and Alton Towers themselves have received the end of my grumbles about the maintenance and other points brought up - I wrote to them about the sponsorship on oblivion last year because I was furious about it. However I just like looking on the bright side of things (as many of the examples in my first post), and I don't think that is a bad thing, surely? I have been a long term fanatic of the park for a good 15 years of my life now, I have seen it go through its ups and downs, I have had my grumbles here and there but overall the development I have seen the park go through is just incredible, so every year I am proud of the place, as with everyone else in this forum so I give the managers and marketing department all due respect, whatever decisions they decide to make. I have been to Europa Park and I am fully aware of what an incredible park the place is, but I feel they are two completely different places, with Europa Park coming originally from MACK rides they have their own unique individuality, so I cannot compare it to Alton Towers. Same with Disney etc. But obviously, you are more than welcome to compare the two if you wish.

I am fully aware that negativity at times is a good thing - if we did not have discussion the world would be boring. Just sometimes the style of things on this forum 'can' sometimes get out of hand. That is all I am saying. I love the park, I love Towerstimes and what the team here have created. I am just expressing my views and opinions - that is allowed surely? I am not having a dig at anyone in particular on this forum, I am just expressing sometimes we need to look at the wider picture. You can agree with me, or disagree as you feel. This is the thing, debate is good!

Hope everyone is having a good Easter.