SW6 Ride Discussion

[Mankey]

[quote=""ShootTheCore""]Yet again I'd say both of those rides rely on heavy theming to hide a pretty rubbish coaster, or at least one with nothing special to it. I have yet to see Vekoma recently make a good thrill ride. They're just churning out dull but perfectly agreeable family coasters. [/quote]

But this will be a family coaster will it not!?

Also... isn't it like that with most coasters? Oblivion without the hole, Nemesis without being so close to the ground constantly?

[Chris W]

Good research there Imagineer John, many thanks. (Your station visuals are pretty nice too!)

Intamin are a good make, they always make solid rides. I want lap-bars instead of the OTSR, gives a much better feeling.

There are 4 manufacturers who who all seem to use the same track so its definitely still between them. (Mack, Intamin, Gertslauer and Premier) It could be any of them.
It wouldn't bother me which one as they all offer the same thing, really.

B&M and Vekoma seem to offer a different ride, including their track.
Vekoma are known for their small innovations (such as the tilt track on Expedition Everest).
B&M are known for big innovations, they often re-write the history books.

Its the ride which is important, not who the steel comes from.

[Javs]

So can all those that still dont believe that it is going to be a B&M tell me what Roland Walter Bolliger & Claude Mabillard were doing at the park today?

Edit: Erm, I think I may have fallen foul of a joke over on the construction thread........sorry!

[Tommy]

Yes, and we're forgetting that it really isn't just the track itself that makes a rollercoaster, you strip every coaster at Alton of it's theming and you lose the vast majority of the experience.

What we're forgetting is that if for five seconds you stop to look at the fact that regardless of whether it's a Mack, B&M, Intamin or Arrow Dynamics! The theming surrounding the ride and it's landscaping is going to be the same, no matter what. If you take away the thrills and spills of the ride and look at the fact that the whole experience can be constructed around anything, the sheer visual effects of the theming etc. will make this ride great.

Take Saw for example, you put that building and the theming on another ride. You might not have a great thrill, but the actual quality of the whole ride is still immense.

The whole of this project doesn't just rest on whether it's B&M or not, so writing it off purely because it isn't would be quite a shame.

---- Post Info Added ----

[quote=""Javs""]So can all those that still dont believe that it is going to be a B&M tell me what Roland Walter Bolliger & Claude Mabillard were doing at the park today?[/quote]

They have time off, it's a recession, they fancied a day out.

But, seriously, that is interesting if they really were there. But still, hasn't Mack been there to?

[Spike]

[quote=""ShootTheCore""]
Can we please stop this "let's not criticize any manufacturers, they all have their good points" thing? Vekoma suck. Let's put it plainly. I will be highly disappointed if it's them. I'm sure it would still be an amazing ride, due to the theming, the setting and based on the track we can see on the plans, but for me it'd be the worst possible outcome in terms of manufacturer. Their trains hurt, they're rough and uncomfortable with a few notable exceptions (Velocity, I'm looking at you, yes I admit it you were pretty good for a mid-sized park). I know you're all gonna pipe up about RNR (which I have been on) and Everest (which I haven't) which are both amazing rides but strip away ALL the theming and both would be absolute rubbish. I'm not saying there aren't ANY good Vekoma rides, just that their hit rate is much, much lower.

I haven't been on any (major) Mack rides, but I have heard great things. I would be very happy to see what they could bring to the table. [/quote]

Vekoma are what made the industry what t is today and they deserve a major amount of respect for what they do and have done.

Their rides can SOMETIMES be rough and a higher majority are not rough in the slightest. If they are rough it's sometimes down to how the ride is maintained. The only reason Corkie and FL's corkie is/was rough is due to the padding which was added to the restraints by both parks not Vekoma.

They have been pioneers in ride design and are advancing better than any company out there. They have their own 10 inversion coaster coming soon with their new trains which have spring loaded wheels and new piviting axels making for a smoother ride overall.

Lets not forget they pioneered the first flying coasters and first switch track. They have made some of the most iconic coasters around and Disney seem to invest heavily in them.

Vekoma dont market themselves as the ultimate rides what they do offer is great rides at affordable prices, they may not be the creme de la creme but they are creditted for helping smaller parks get their foot in the door.

Not forgetting and most importantly that enthusiasts do nothing but moan, especially about how rough a ride is. Joe public doesn't give a damn because they dont ride them all the time and being able to compare between manufacturers. So enthusiasts are small fish in a big pond when it comes to park investments as they no people will moan regardless of what happens.

Vekoma Coasters in the world to date - 251
B&M - 74
Intamin -101

And before you say it's quality not quantity which matters, that I leave to personal opinion and say Vekoma rides don't really bother me as I'm able to see beyond my own personal views and see Vekoma from outside the box.

[Matt.C]

[quote=""leroy2009jones""]B&M
(This is not spam, im just re-iterating that it will be a B&M for those who have forgotten)
John Wardley, Claude and Walter on site.[/quote]
When I see a photo of those 3 I will believe you.


It's great to have you on the site Imagineer John. Your station visuals are great as is your research. I just want a new coaster. If it goes round the track and has a bit of airtime, that'll do me.

[Satch]

[quote=""ShootTheCore""]Yet again I'd say both of those rides rely on heavy theming to hide a pretty rubbish coaster, or at least one with nothing special to it. I have yet to see Vekoma recently make a good thrill ride. They're just churning out dull but perfectly agreeable family coasters.[/quote]

And yet, from all the plans, it seems SW6 relies heavily on themeing too...

All roller coasters in theme parks rely on themeing. They wouldnt be theme parks otherwise. Air hasnt got themeing.. and whats the first problem enthusiasts complain about? No themeing to complete the experience.

I think perhaps you dont like Vekoma personally. But there is no denying they have made excellent rides. Colorado Adventure, Big Thunder Mountain, Rock 'n' Roller, Space Mountain. They are all excellent experiences. Sure, place them in a car park and they look terrible. But doesnt everything you find in a theme park?

[furie]

Just to add to ImagineerJohn's post.

I've been against Intamin, purely because everyone has been all MEGA-LITE!

It's not a Mega-lite. However, I do concede that the "other" Intamin rides of this type match very well. They've all been launched so far (IIRC), which throws you off a bit. So it looks like a bit of a hybrid of the Intamin Motocoasters (or whatever they're called).

A member on CF called a good observation. Premier (my favourites until this point) have their diagonal cross struts going one way, the plans show them going the other. It does rule out Premier (for the same reason it rules out Vekoma and B&M - track types don't match the plans).

[quote=""billyrae""]
I have to disagree with you there regarding plans needing to be 100% accurate.
On the plans submitted for my house build they do not show the bricks in the walls or the type of tile we used on the roof.
[/quote]

That's quite odd, because the plans for the extension to my house had details of exactly that. The brick type (size and colour) and the type of tile on the roof. When we changed the tile type, we had to inform the council of the change and get an approval from them.

Obviously sucks to live in Stafford...

Anyway, again, logically, the plans make sense.

The manufacturer draws up the plans according to all the ground works, etc. The designers/planners/architects then get given a copy of the coaster design, probably on AutoCad. The designers/planners/architects know NOTHING about coaster design. They are NOT going to redraw the entire coaster onto their plans - just to confuse two hundred enthusiasts!

It would add days of extra work to do, and then there's a chance they may get it wrong. They can't afford to, so they will have imported the manufacturer plans in on a new layer on AutoCad and used that as a foundation. There's no point in repeating work already done.

It's either that, or they all worked together, and again, the manufacturer will have accurately represented their own track.

The plans are 100% accurate - Alton CANNOT afford to get it wrong - they have to be completely open and honest as they have a very volatile relationship with the locals.

[leroy2009jones]

I've just spoken to Rob Duncan in planning, the track plans are an actual representation of what will be built so it is exactly what we'll see in 2010.
As far as the amendment to the building, he's confirmed there is not much difference to the original plans, merely cm's.
The planning still hasn't been granted yet, however they are in the final stages of securing the little details i.e Alton's investment into traffic surveying etc..

[Tommy]

I agree with furie, the chances on them actually wanting to trick enthusiasts with adjusted plans is very slim, let alone them actually going with it.

There would be little point in them building lots of speculation about the manufacturer because, at the end of the day, it's only 100 odd enthusiasts that are really going to care about it. By the looks of this thread, maybe 50% don't even care what the manufacturer is as long as it is done to a good standard.

I think the confusion surrounding the manufacturer is interesting, and more and more seem to get 'ruled out'. Any speculation is good speculation, but regardless, I can't see SW6 flopping at all in my opinion

[GreggyFace]

To be quite honest i dont really mind who the manufacturer is as long as its a good ride. I dont think we should go around critising all the other manufacturers beacuse they want a B and M.

The ride hasnt even begun to be errected yet, i think we cant really make a judgement that the ride is going to be crap until you have ridden it.

Im sure all the stops are going to be pulled out for this one as its Altons first majour attraction under merlin, so i wouldnt worry about this ride being crap.

[Tommy]

[quote=""GreggyFace""]
The ride hasnt even begun to be errected yet, [/quote]

Come on Tom, you're a big lad now..

That is true though, construction will allow us to see who the manufacturer is, but that's still quite far away. I'm no landscaper but i'm pretty sure it could still take a while before anything can actually be built.

[El Patricko]

dormiensdraco - Correct me if im wrong but they tested on X:/NWO because it has switchback sections

X- No way out has no "switchbacks", i'd assume they tested it for sound impact as it is of a similar scale.

One thing that is puzzling me about this whole "B&M" thing is even if B&M did diversify and create the said track layout, wouldn't it be almost the same as having Mack build it anyway given that all of the traits that made a B&M would be gone..

It appears SW6 will re-classify the term Secret-Weapon, as it will be corkscrew's replacement and a family coaster verging on thrill-seeker level in terms of intensity. I believe the codename was adopted as this is going to be a large project for the park and a large investment spanning 2 or 3 seasons. To be honest i think it was a mistake to use the hallowed codename as it has built up so much hope and anticipation, maybe it would have been better to codename this ride something theme specific.

[Joe Koopa]

To be honest, the only 4 manufacters I can see desging the ride, at the moment are-
*B&M-*Waits to take the beating out of million others* Because of what Shaun said in the video, besids that there's no evidence. It's just becoma an actual possibility.
*MACK-They've always been one of the company's that don't rely on a set desgin or coaster, which is why I was not suprised when I found out that most of Europa Park, bar Silver Star and a few others, were entirley MACK. It seems that they'd be the company, who would actually desgin such a ride, esspecally with all the possibilites. There could be, such as launched lift-hill and unique cars.
*Intamin-My choice of manufacterer really, Imaginear John seems to have quite hard evidence for them and they have desgined many coasters similar to what the current plans show. Again, they could also be innovative with new car types and what not, and if they did make it I wouldn't be suprised if they made it with unique X-Car type cars.
*S&S-Currently another one I doubt, but it hasn't been considered as of yet, they could conbine an El Loco with a new-caoster desgin for them and SW6 track isn't far of from El Loco track.

Oh, and back onto car-types, how about a drifting coasters like what can be found on RCT3, where the car kind of goes off the track and what not.

[PeteB]

I think its safe to say that this ride is definitely going to be Intamin. ImagineerJohn has actually gone out and done the research to find an exact track/support match. Everything he said adds up! Well done!

I'm completely swayed now by the posts he's made. My money is on Intamin too!

[Rob L]

[quote=""leroy2009jones""]I've just spoken to Rob Duncan in planning, the track plans are an actual representation of what will be built so it is exactly what we'll see in 2010.
As far as the amendment to the building, he's confirmed there is not much difference to the original plans, merely cm's.
The planning still hasn't been granted yet, however they are in the final stages of securing the little details i.e Alton's investment into traffic surveying etc..[/quote]

So now you know that what we are going to see is what is exactly on the plans, do you still think it's going to be a B&M?

If B&M are to be the manufacturer for this ride, they are going to have to change their track design completely, and even if they were willing to do that why would Alon go for them ahead of other manufacturers who have been successful with bi-rail track? I just don't think they would. Right now everything is pointing away from B&M and towards Intamin, and I would much rather have an Intamin for this particular ride.

[LittleJonny]

[url=" target="_blank][/url]

? maybe use the cars at the end of the video?
would be awesome

[Sam]

[quote=""Spike""][quote=""ShootTheCore""]
Can we please stop this "let's not criticize any manufacturers, they all have their good points" thing? Vekoma suck. Let's put it plainly. I will be highly disappointed if it's them. I'm sure it would still be an amazing ride, due to the theming, the setting and based on the track we can see on the plans, but for me it'd be the worst possible outcome in terms of manufacturer. Their trains hurt, they're rough and uncomfortable with a few notable exceptions (Velocity, I'm looking at you, yes I admit it you were pretty good for a mid-sized park). I know you're all gonna pipe up about RNR (which I have been on) and Everest (which I haven't) which are both amazing rides but strip away ALL the theming and both would be absolute rubbish. I'm not saying there aren't ANY good Vekoma rides, just that their hit rate is much, much lower.

I haven't been on any (major) Mack rides, but I have heard great things. I would be very happy to see what they could bring to the table. [/quote]

Vekoma are what made the industry what it is today and they deserve a major amount of respect for what they do and have done.[/quote]
Oh come on, even you must have found it hard to write that without laughing. In the development of the steel rollercoaster, only one company could anywhere near claim they "made the industry what it is today" and that's Arrow Dynamics.

• First steel rollercoaster, ever
  First modern inverting coaster
  First suspended coaster (without this, there would be no inverts)
  First coaster over 200ft (which forms the basis of nearly all subsequent higher rides until TTD)
  First 4D coaster

[quote=""Spike""]Lets not forget they pioneered the first flying coasters and first switch track. They have made some of the most iconic coasters around and Disney seem to invest heavily in them.[/quote]
The "flying" coasters were apparently rushed out the door to beat B&M, which explains the godawful ride design of laying down in the station. I really don't think switch track is an innovation on a similar scale to the above. Disney use them because they have to, they spend so much on theming a rollercoaster that if they also got a decent manufacturer for the ride it'd cost a fortune.

[quote=""Spike""]Vekoma Coasters in the world to date - 251
B&M - 74
Intamin -101

And before you say it's quality not quantity which matters, that I leave to personal opinion and say Vekoma rides don't really bother me as I'm able to see beyond my own personal views and see Vekoma from outside the box.[/quote]
Yeah, The Daily Mail is a much higher quality newspaper than The Times or The Guardian because it's read by more people

I think it's a pretty weak argument, just writing me off as "not being able to see Vekoma outside some sort of personal dislike". Why would I have a personal dislike for a manufacturer? It's not like someone I hate works there. It's just that their percentage of crap rides is much higher than the other manufacturers.

[quote=""Satch""][quote=""ShootTheCore""] They are all excellent experiences. Sure, place them in a car park and they look terrible. But doesnt everything you find in a theme park?[/color][/quote]
[quote=""Mankey""]Also... isn't it like that with most coasters? Oblivion without the hole, Nemesis without being so close to the ground constantly?[/quote]
Put Nemmy or Oblivion just in a car park and yes, they would look absolutely god-awful but the actual ride experience, as in what they would feel like if you totally shut your eyes would still be amazingly thrilling. They are good enough rides that they wouldn't need the theming to carry them, plenty of minimally B&M's around the world prove that.

[quote=""Satch""][quote=""ShootTheCore""]I think perhaps you dont like Vekoma personally. But there is no denying they have made excellent rides. Colorado Adventure, Big Thunder Mountain, Rock 'n' Roller, Space Mountain. They are all excellent experiences.?[/color][/quote][/quote][/quote]
ALL rely almost entirely on theming to carry the ride. You can't deny that, those 4 are amongst the best themed rollercoasters on earth. I'll ask again. Can anyone name a recent Vekoma thrill coaster that can stand on it's own merits?

[Mankey]

[quote=""LittleJonny""]

? maybe use the cars at the end of the video?
would be awesome[/quote]


That wouldn't work for this ride, plus the track doesn't look like that either.

Robocoasters = Ugliest rides ever!

IMO!

Edit: And STC i've said this! This is going to be a family coaster and you've said thats what vekoma do good! You've shot yourself in the foot here! :P What has this gotta do with thrill rides standing on their own with no theming, its got nothing to do with this at all!

[Anonymous]

[quote=""LittleJonny""]

? maybe use the cars at the end of the video?
would be awesome[/quote]

yeaah that would be awesome :woo:
too bad the track doesn't really fit #-o