Merlin Entertainments General Discussion

General theme park and attraction industry chat, along with the world of theme park gaming.
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Slappy McGuire
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As companies go, Merlin is a lot younger than the likes of Disney and Universal. What this interview said to me is that Merlin is clearly a company proud of what it has achieved, but seem almost uncertain of it's future role in the industry. The interview just felt ambiguous and unambitious, and seemed without ever Mentioning it directly somewhat embarrassed at the huge turnover compared to actual profit.

The museum quote is also a curious one; I was always brought up to believe that people will pay a premium for a pinnacle, and find it odd to think that Merlin see free museums effectively as competition, rather than something which helps fuel the GP's love for leisure - rather than complaining about the encroachment of Eurodisney on the UK market.

The thing that kinda shouted out to me most is that Merlin appears to see its future as more Euro-centric, rather than UK dominated, which to me suggests that they see the UK market as over saturated, and not deserving of mega investment. Sadly, he's probably right.
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Tom G
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I trust next to that sign there was a bar chart showing profit margins compared to "all of our fellow attractions" in the European Union?
Dormiens-Dave

[quote=""Tom G""]I trust next to that sign there was a bar chart showing profit margins compared to "all of our fellow attractions" in the European Union?[/quote]

yeh because god forbid a company should make profit, i forgot how selfless Disney universal and six flags are in their financial dealings
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Islander
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[quote=""Tom G""]I trust next to that sign there was a bar chart showing profit margins compared to "all of our fellow attractions" in the European Union?[/quote]
Talk about auto-negativity :roll:. It's actually been said a few times now that although Merlin's turnover is very high, their profit isn't.

Also, what Dave said ^.
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Tom G
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We can counter each other's comments for all eternity, but ultimately it comes down to if you are happy with the way big business such as this operates or not. I largely am, actually. They just deserve to be pulled up on certain comments that come across as seeking sympathy or justifying high prices.

I didn't slate them for making a profit, I swiped at their comparison to other European attractions which is flawed.
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Coaster Neil
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Theme parks do need to pay high taxes. Free museums don't pay for themselves you know.

Seriously, great link. I always enjoy reading interviews with respected members of the theme park industry.

The issue of tax reminds me of this:
[url=http://www.iaapa.org/industry/funworld/ ... /index.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;]http://www.iaapa.org/industry/funworld/ ... /index.asp[/url]

It's out of date, but some of its still relevant. Given the deficits many country’s have I doubt many will rush to lower VAT over the next few years, although I do agree that if it does vary this much between countries it may seem unfair. Apparently the German theme parks have been paying 19% VAT (more than the British parks until VAT goes up). I can sympathise with these concerns, although it has to be said that the German theme parks do offer a high quality despite VAT. I wonder how good Europa Park would be if they only had to pay 5%.

Tax is an emotive issue that gets strong reactions, but it is useful to have these debates. If you could lower VAT from 20% to 5% and increase the treasury's income by attracting more visitors, does that mean they’d need to attract four times as many visitors? Or slightly less with an increase with in park spending? I think it’s unlikely that you could increase visitor numbers that much, although if there are these discrepancies across Europe I’m sure there are some important debates about taxation.
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Adz
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Anyone remember when the VAT did go down? Sure it was only by 2.5%, but at the same time every UK Merlin attraction RAISED its ticket price.

Something to think about.
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AstroDan

Actually that's not exactly true. I recall prices went down for a period - and the online ticket price for Alton Towers was something odd like "£29.73" as they knocked it down. However, that did not last long and it ended up going back to the same and then, before the VAT went back to 17.5% again it did rise slightly.

Sadly, the VAT drop to 15% didn't do much - I recall loads of places initially lowered prices but then put them up slightly...
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haydn!
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The VAT reduction helped no-one. It made little to no difference to the bottom lines of small businesses, and cost larger business millions to implement through pricing and POS material changes.

That article was a great read, and shed some light on how the Merlin group operates. As expected, they actually have little involvement in the running of each park, only offer financial support and guidance.

Also, overreaction on the museum comments or what? He was asked what he thought the government had done to help the tourism industry, and his answer was, however brutal, very honest. He was not insulting free museums, he was insulted the governments one sided approach to the tourism industry. Free museums and lottery funded public sector owned attractions are competition to all private sector attractions. The fact the government has neglected to help the private tourism sector when it's chosen to bail out other private sector markets and businesses is an insult to Merlin and it's private sector competitors. Especially when you consider the significant impact tourism has on the UK economy.

It must be said though that the constant negativity towards Alton Towers, and the Merlin hate bandwagon steaming its away around these forums is becoming tiresome and seriously off-putting. :x
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Sam
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[quote=""haydn!""]Also, overreaction on the museum comments or what? He was asked what he thought the government had done to help the tourism industry, and his answer was, however brutal, very honest. He was not insulting free museums, he was insulted the governments one sided approach to the tourism industry. Free museums and lottery funded public sector owned attractions are competition to all private sector attractions. The fact the government has neglected to help the private tourism sector when it's chosen to bail out other private sector markets and businesses is an insult to Merlin and it's private sector competitors. Especially when you consider the significant impact tourism has on the UK economy.[/quote]
The government subsides free museums as they are educational. The benefit the nation's future, they raise the overall knowledge of the nation. They allow people of any background to better themselves through education.

As much as I love theme parks, they're not educational and they don't improve the nation in any meaningful way. Anyway, this whole argument is based on the idea that free museums are somehow in competition with Merlin's attractions. Does anyone really say "Hmmmm where shall we go today... British Museum or London Dungeons?"
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haydn!
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[quote=""Sam""]Does anyone really say "Hmmmm where shall we go today... British Museum or London Dungeons?"[/quote]

Yes.

I think you're completely missing the point he was trying to make. In no way did he say, or did I say that free museums are a bad thing for people. They're great! But from the point of view of competing attractions the fact they're free or heavily subsidised is damaging. Given the choice between a free day out or something that will cost the average family in excess £100.00, which would you choose?

As brilliant a move it is to provide free museums, the governments move here does nothing to help the wider tourism industry, especially the private sector attractions in London which still make up the majority of the industry. I don't think Merlin are expecting government hand outs, but they do have to compete against these subsidised attractions.

Educational or not, places like Alton Towers provide significant contributions to their local and national economies, something that shouldn't be ignored. Alton Towers generates something like £80 million for its local economy every year and employs either directly or indirectly over 3,500 people.
Last edited by haydn! on Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sam
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[quote=""haydn!""]As brilliant a move it is to provide free museums, the governments move here does nothing to 'help' the wider tourism industry, especially the private sector attractions in London which still make up the majority of the industry. I don't think Merlin are expecting government hand outs, but they do have to compete against these subsidised attractions.[/quote]
Government subsidies is a double-edged sword.

I think Merlin can compete by sacrificing a bit of profit and making huge expansions, improvements and investments to their London attractions. The flipside of being government funded, especially in the coming months, is that you have a vastly lower budget. If Merlin want to compete, they have a huge amount of capital they could invest. But they choose not to, they choose to get away with the cheapest option and the most profit.

The BBC is similar to the free museums. The idea of the BBC is it forces other channels to really raise their game to lure viewers away from the ad-free station. This ends up with innovative and better programming on all channels - a win-win for the consumer!
Blaze

Choosing not to invest? Here's a small list of what they've been up to recently:
Thirteen
X-Raptor
Krake
Wild Asia
Saw
Saw maze
Mutiny Bay
Cypres Hills
Ausie attractions
Blackpool

Not investing at all. :roll:
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Wes
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[quote=""haydn!""]It must be said though that the constant negativity towards Alton Towers, and the Merlin hate bandwagon steaming its away around these forums is becoming tiresome and seriously off-putting. :x[/quote]

:clap:

As a TTF veteran & someone who rarely posts but still watches the forums. I agree.

People have always moaned about the prices of theme parks, even when I was visiting in the 90's with the parents, I remember my dad saying how high gate prices were.

I agree that some things Merlin have done haven't been great, but this forum is filled with hate for the place at the moment and there are certain members who clearly come on here daily to have a rant. It's silly and very boring to watch.
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Sam
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[quote=""Blaze""]Choosing not to invest? Here's a small list of what they've been up to recently:
Thirteen
X-Raptor
Krake
Wild Asia
Saw
Saw maze
Mutiny Bay
Cypres Hills
Ausie attractions
Blackpool

Not investing at all. :roll:[/quote]
I'm talking about the UK market, where free museums may affect Merlin. That rules four of the investments above. Blackpool is a wholly new attraction, not an investment or improvement in existing attractions. Mutiny Bay is a very small investment, as is the SAW maze and Wild Asia. Th13teen and Saw: The Ride are very cheap investments compared to Europe.

Merlin, shut up about free museums and improve your existing attractions enough to COMPETE.
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Rob L
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[quote=""Sam""]Merlin, shut up about free museums and improve your existing attractions enough to COMPETE.[/quote]
It's not as if Merlin are going on about free museums, someone just mentioned it as part of an answer to an interview question. People say I've taken this banner on the homepage too seriously, well in that case maybe some of you should look at how you've taken this tiny statement about free museums. :roll:

:)
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AstroDan

Guys. Can we cut out the hostilities please! Some people are obviously very frustrated with Merlin/Alton Towers at the moment, some people obviously satisfied with them. This is the nature of the forum and as I have already explained in the banner thread, the forum has gone through cycles of positive/negative for years since it began. Nobody should be victimized for criticizing Merlin on TTF, nor should anybody be lambasted for being over the moon with them. Everyone has their own opinion.

You are all excellent contributors to the forum but we need to keep things civil, please!

:)
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haydn!
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[quote=""AstroDan""]Guys. Can we cut out the hostilities please! Some people are obviously very frustrated with Merlin/Alton Towers at the moment, some people obviously satisfied with them. This is the nature of the forum and as I have already explained in the banner thread, the forum has gone through cycles of positive/negative for years since it began. Nobody should be victimized for criticizing Merlin on TTF, nor should anybody be lambasted for being over the moon with them. Everyone has their own opinion.

You are all excellent contributors to the forum but we need to keep things civil, please!

:)[/quote]


I fail to see any hostilities or reason for intervention, only topical discussion where people are voicing their own opinions and analysing those of others. If we cannot challenge, or question other peoples responses or opinions it would not be an open discussion.
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Islander
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[quote=""haydn!""]I fail to see any hostilities or reason for intervention...[/quote]
That'd probably be:


[quote=""Wes""]...there are certain members who clearly come on here daily to have a rant. It's silly and very boring to watch.[/quote]
Along with:
[quote=""Sam""]Merlin, shut up about free museums and improve your existing attractions enough to COMPETE.[/quote]
i.e. there are faults on both sides. This is an interesting discussion, 'twould be a shame for either side to ruin it.
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haydn!
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[quote=""Islander""]
That'd probably be:

[quote=""Wes""]...there are certain members who clearly come on here daily to have a rant. It's silly and very boring to watch.[/quote]
[/quote]

Again, I fail to see why that remark requires intervention. It's someone's opinion, and I happen to share that opinion.

It seems you can criticise Alton Towers, Merlin as much as you want, but the moment you criticise the criticisers you become hostile - how does that promote open and fair discussion? If a topic is going to be cut short every time it becomes a little heated then TTF is not only becoming wholesomely negative, but boring as well.
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