Location: Curled up in Nemmies claws. Sound asleep and purring like a kitten.
ImagineerJohn wrote:
It is not confirmed anywhere that this is the same manufacturers.
Taken from the noise report.
Noise from the planned new coaster was modelled based on a similar one located at
Thorpe Park. The Thorpe Park ride, “Saw” is the SAME type AND manufacturer as the
proposed ride, including a “beyond vertical” drop.
ImagineerJohn wrote:
It is not confirmed anywhere that this is the same manufacturers.
Apart from in a document which makes up a package of a planning application submitted to the authorities......in an area that has been the focal point of noise-related legal battles for years.
If this turns out to be anything other than a Gerstlauer, I'll complain to the council myself that they've misled us
The noise recordings will have to be done on "a" coaster somewhere with similar features. If they were orginalyl going for Gerstularer they would have done these long ago on Saw. However if they opt for Maurer the winning design then they are not going to go away and try to relate the noise to another coaster that they do not own. Th13teen's was done on X:noway out for isntance.. Only because it had backwards indoor similarity.
This statement may NOT have been ammended. Errors do appear in reports we do not know how up to date all these plans are we have seen plans go in that are not the final ones.
Last edited by ImagineerJohn on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
The wording of the noise report for Th13teen (also prepared by Atkins) was...
"Noise from the planned new coaster was modelled on a similar one located at Thorpe Park. The Thorpe park ride “No Way Out” is totally enclosed within a metal framed/clad building."
It didn't actually state anything about the manufacturer.
I have no reason to doubt that this ride will be manufactured by Gerstlauer however on one of the planning documents they refer to "Sonic Screwball" so mistakes can easily be made.
The noise recordings will have to be done on "a" coaster somewhere with similar features. If they were orginalyl going for Gerstularer they would have done these long ago on Saw. However if they opt for Maurer the winning design then they are not going to go away and try to relate the noise to another coaster that they do not own. Th13teen's was done on X:noway out for isntance.. Only because it had backwards indoor similarity.
This statement may NOT have been ammended. Errors do appear in reports we do not know how up to date all these plans are we have seen plans go in that are not the final ones.
I see your point, and I do agree the style of supports look more like rides from others, but as noise complaints in this area are such a major thing, and have been brought up again so recently, I think this is a document that they would be very foolish to get wrong.
The noise recordings will have to be done on "a" coaster somewhere with similar features. If they were orginalyl going for Gerstularer they would have done these long ago on Saw. However if they opt for Maurer the winning design then they are not going to go away and try to relate the noise to another coaster that they do not own. Th13teen's was done on X:noway out for isntance.. Only because it had backwards indoor similarity.
This statement may NOT have been ammended. Errors do appear in reports we do not know how up to date all these plans are we have seen plans go in that are not the final ones.
There is a chance this could be a curve ball, yes, and I did read that on TPR and it does look plausible in many ways. It would definitely be higher capacity compared to a Eurofighter which Alton would be looking to have.
I'm not entirely sure how much deception can go on in planning laws and I did spot and wonder about the comment it being a "beyond vertical drop" which SW7 does not have.
I'm willing to admit the possibility that this could be an X-Car but Merlin do like to bulk buy coasters and I'm sure this ride was conceived around the time of SAW with this in mind, just as SW8 I'm thinking will be the concept B&M which is not quite ready for 2013 meaning this has been moved forward. We know the plans for SW7 were changed at the last minute and this was not meant for 2013, but as far as what we have to go on it states the same manufacturer.
What I will add is that if this turns out to be a MS X-Car i'll be a little disappointed because G-Farce is the worst coaster I've ever ridden & I hate everything about it.
Last edited by Spike on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
The noise recordings will have to be done on "a" coaster somewhere with similar features. If they were orginalyl going for Gerstularer they would have done these long ago on Saw. However if they opt for Maurer the winning design then they are not going to go away and try to relate the noise to another coaster that they do not own. Th13teen's was done on X:noway out for isntance.. Only because it had backwards indoor similarity.
This statement may NOT have been ammended. Errors do appear in reports we do not know how up to date all these plans are we have seen plans go in that are not the final ones.
It is absolutely inconceivable that a clear and definitive statement of the ride being of the same manufacturers AND type as another ride would be made in error. The plans would have been reviewed by Alton Towers and Merlin representatives. They want to be absolutely sure these plans go through and I don't think they're interested in further legal disputes over noise.
There's playing devil's advocate (of which I can be quite a big portrayer) and there's a kind of blindness and denial that reminds me of a parent not accepting that their child is on drugs despite finding cannabis in their pockets...
Tom G wrote:I haven't compared closely, but the track style looks identical to Saw's to me?
Firstly let me state that I agree completely with you that if it says Gerstlauer on the plans then that's who it will be. Now let me explain how these tracks are completely different.
As you can see the track types have a completely different design. This is why there is confusion over the noice statement.
Oh and one more thing. The new Intamin supports are only used on their Hyper/Giga coasters. They have a Double Circular Spline, not singular. They also have struts perpendicular to the rails so that the design matches their Bi, Tri and Quad rails. This is no Intamin.
BTW, the noise readings at Thorpe were taken on 2nd Nov (also in 3.1 of the noise report)
Please don't get me wrong, whoever builds this I think it will be an amazing ride and I think the design teams (whoever they are) have done a great job. Just as was said earlier, if we accept that the information in the planning apps is wrong or misleading, then there's no point comparing track CAD either, that could also be wrong!
Location: Curled up in Nemmies claws. Sound asleep and purring like a kitten.
There is a case for it being an X-Car to be fair, you cannot deny that. The question is, what is more likely to be more accurate? The statement about the noise comparison, or, the track & supports shown on the plans?
Both have their merits and I guess we're just going to have to wait this one out. I have to say I'm on the fence with this one, compelling evidence on both sides really.
The likely scenario here is that this coaster will use a new track design by Gerstlauer that is similar to Maurer and new Vekoma track. And because of new track the support structure for the vertical lift will also be different to on previous Gerstlauers.
Would anyone hazard a guess to what the name of this coaster will be?
My money's on Amnesia, just because I think it's fitting with the theme of Oblivion and suits the ride's crazy layout.
I love the discussion about the manufacturer, they really have confused us with the track design. Going to be great when we finally get the information but right now i'm sticking with Eurofighter
Tom G wrote:I haven't compared closely, but the track style looks identical to Saw's to me?
Firstly let me state that I agree completely with you that if it says Gerstlauer on the plans then that's who it will be. Now let me explain how these tracks are completely different.
As you can see the track types have a completely different design. This is why there is confusion over the noice statement.
Oh and one more thing. The new Intamin supports are only used on their Hyper/Giga coasters. They have a Double Circular Spline, not singular. They also have struts perpendicular to the rails so that the design matches their Bi, Tri and Quad rails. This is no Intamin.
I hope this has helped.
Thanks a lot for that, it has helped! It's the first time I've properly examined the track design and can now certainly see why people think it could be an X-Car.
I still maintain that the planning literature is paramount, I really can't see the manufacturer statement being wrong. As for the 'type' of ride being the same, that statement certainly seems very dubious indeed!
Also, don't Vekoma use that track style these days? I'm not sure how track design works as Shockwave looks like B&M track?
Spike wrote:
compelling evidence on both sides really.
I have to disagree - the planning document CATEGORICALLY states this is a Gerstlauer coaster. They could have developed a new ride type with new track design.
New track is far more likely than a legal document being wrong.
It will be set in stone that this is a Gerstlauer. However as for the ride type, this is still open up for debate - the Eurofighter design might be getting a radical redesign, it could be an X-Car or Gerstlauer might have come up with a new concept for Alton which is of high similarity to Saw.
muttlee wrote:
BTW, the noise readings at Thorpe were taken on 2nd Nov (also in 3.1 of the noise report)
If this is true then there can be no doubt at all that the planning document is totally correct.
Why would they take a noise reading, two months before the plans are released and then word the document so it categorically points to Gerstlauer if it was to be someone else?
Location: Curled up in Nemmies claws. Sound asleep and purring like a kitten.
adsyrah wrote:
Spike wrote:
compelling evidence on both sides really.
I have to disagree - the planning document CATEGORICALLY states this is a Gerstlauer coaster. They could have developed a new ride type with new track design.
New track is far more likely than a legal document being wrong.
That is why I said I have no idea on planning laws. Whether or not manufacturer statements are legally binding or that the plans themselves are legally binding. If indeed the track & supports have to be the same as on the plans then X-car has a case. But considering they made a cock up by suggesting this new ride has a vertical drop, which is does not, you have to wonder if the wording & comparisons is actually a legal requirement when the ride comes into fruition.
I still remain on the fence. I remember this same debate happening with Th13teen's track when the plans were released and that turned out to be exactly as it was portrayed on the plans.
Personally I understand what ImagineerJohn is saying but I'd actually be inclined to believe the opposite. I think the manufacture might have changed since the track layout was designed and that the park has not had time to alter the plans. This might also explain why the themed elements have not yet appeared.
This has certainly happened before as you can see with the Saw plans. The layout was different then to what it is now. However a last minute change of manufacturer sounds like quite a dangerous decision. Remember Drachen Fire which was originally believed to be a B&M. However beyond Wardley’s initial sketches I'm not entirely sure who is responsible for designing a ride's track nowadays. I know that Stengel design quite a few non B&M's but that's the limit of my knowledge.
Location: Curled up in Nemmies claws. Sound asleep and purring like a kitten.
Not to mention that that they don't actually need planning permission for the coaster itself so they could design the plans to feature any number of track styles. The planning permission is actually for the station & building.
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