The Smiler - Speculation

[Rollercoasters4Life]

If Alton towers had been denied permission to build a coaster due to fears over a simple lifthill ratchet being too noisey, we would have had renewed plans specifically saying new silent lifthill, if it were as amazing as that, they would have put this forward in the council meeting as reasons why it should be allowed to be built... Fact is they didn't, or we'd already know about it.

Alton towers were given permission to build this ride based on everyone thinking it would have a normal ratchet... So if there was no problem... And I hate to repeat myself, why on earth would they go to this trouble, expense, to overengineer something that no one had any complaints about to start with?

Its also like saying why engineer solar panels when we have coal/nuclear and other power alternatives. Its a step forward in evacuation of a train on a vertical lift hill - which is known to cause a headache when evacuated. These are also longer trains which make the situation worse. The quieter lift hill also prevents The Ropers complaining of new noises because of The Smiler being added and I believe there is an ongoing court case with them. The new evacuation style just allows it to be quieter which is a double winner in Alton's eyes. Noise pollution in this area of the park is the reason Alton Towers got given a noise abatement order in the first place.

If you think it is the vertical freefall backwards idea - then why is it on BOTH lift hills?

[clayj]

Just think how loud x sector would be with 3 different clickety click ratchets going off echoing around the area though ??

[bealyboy]

I'm pretty sure that there won't be a rollback on the verticle lift because just why??
However, we're assuming it will fall about 20m and (excluding friction/air resistance) it will accelerate at 9.81m/s/s so it will take about 1.7(ish) seconds and will end up at 19m/s(ish) which is 68km/h. It probably won't reach that speed (as I only got there through dodgy calculations with very basic knowledge of gravity) and this seems very unlikely as it will take some very strong brakes to slow it to a safe speed at the bottom.
Someone with more knowledge please help and fix 

"because why...?" Because it would be a world's first.

I do like your calculations, I was trying to do something like that myself. 13s drop lasts about 1 second, it is also cushioned by magnetic brakes. Think of the fins working by drastically reducing the terminal velocity of the train, the point being, the train would still be in freefall until that terminal velocity was reached.
[/quote]
It's been done before not a world first

[youarecorrectsir]

If Alton towers had been denied permission to build a coaster due to fears over a simple lifthill ratchet being too noisey, we would have had renewed plans specifically saying new silent lifthill, if it were as amazing as that, they would have put this forward in the council meeting as reasons why it should be allowed to be built... Fact is they didn't, or we'd already know about it.

Why would we know about it? As far as I am aware, none of our members sat in on the council meeting. We only saw the original plans - whats to say one of the terms of agreement was a quieter lift hill?

Alton towers were given permission to build this ride based on everyone thinking it would have a normal ratchet... So if there was no problem... And I hate to repeat myself, why on earth would they go to this trouble, expense, to overengineer something that no one had any complaints about to start with?

I'm sorry, but how do you know this? We know for a fact the residents are extremely upset with the noise issues! Alton Towers are limited for space, and they wanted to build an enormous roller coaster. If the price for that was spending a bit more money on newer, quieter, more expensive technology I would have thought they'd do it. Not over-engineering at all, just engineering!

[kingda dude]

The idea that the fins are soely for the chance that the chain snaps is a prosperous idea and here is why:

Lets say the worst thing happens; the chain snaps!
What would happen?
Answer:
The train would jolt back about 10cm and stop.

Why?
Because Gerstlauer chains are locked in the channel and on the gear by roller bearings and channels. This gives the chain compressive strength due to the rollers preventing it from crumpling up. The slight jolt back is caused by the chain between the train and the lower sprocket being put under compression.

But couldn't the chain crumple between the end of the channel and the sprocket?
The channel extends over the lower sprocket, meaning that the chain between it and the train is entirely supported and would be stable enough to hold up the train.

What if the chain snapped between the train and the lower sprocket?
The lift would operate as normal until the train went over the lift hill, Also it is impossible as that part of the chain is under no force.

What about reason that it didn't have ratchets was because of sound problems?
I find that unlikely, eurofighters aren't known for their loud chain lifts, and there are plenty of other rides in X-sector that produce more noise than the lift hill could potentially ever produce. In fact Gerstlauers ratchet only engages when the catch (which holds onto the chain dog) is no longer in tension, sort of like this lift:

(look at the two yellow arrows)
Meaning that even if the lift had ratchets it would still be pretty much silent.

What if they are testing an new safety mechanism?
"If it ain't broke don't fix it" There is no problem with ratchets, they work and have prevented many incidents. They also aren't very expensive (unlike the specialist alloys of brake fins). Why on earth would they want to change it to a system that doesn't stop the train and also costs allot more money?!

What is the reason for not having ratchets then?
Ratchets are the best physical fail safe ever, the only reason I can see that you would omit them from the ride is if they would restrict a specific function of a ride (i.e. reversing down a lift hill at speed).

I would like to finally point out, in all cases (on any roller coaster), if the chain was to snap the train is NOT ALLOWED under any circumstances reverse down the lift as the chain could have buckled and covered the track. Which could result in excessive damage to the train, tracks and passengers.

Image from:
http://www.robinsonlibrary.com/technology/mechanical/hoisting/otis.htm

[sw7nutter]

If Alton towers had been denied permission to build a coaster due to fears over a simple lifthill ratchet being too noisey, we would have had renewed plans specifically saying new silent lifthill, if it were as amazing as that, they would have put this forward in the council meeting as reasons why it should be allowed to be built... Fact is they didn't, or we'd already know about it.

Alton towers were given permission to build this ride based on everyone thinking it would have a normal ratchet... So if there was no problem... And I hate to repeat myself, why on earth would they go to this trouble, expense, to overengineer something that no one had any complaints about to start with?

Its also like saying why engineer solar panels when we have coal/nuclear and other power alternatives. Its a step forward in evacuation of a train on a vertical lift hill - which is known to cause a headache when evacuated. These are also longer trains which make the situation worse. The quieter lift hill also prevents The Ropers complaining of new noises

If it is for this one off scenario where the "dog" cant hold it for whatever reason and these fins are needed then they would be needed on the entire lift hill as they are not i'm already doubting this.
Also why go through the effort and the money to make a system that may never be used. After all to roll it back in a  normal situation then someone would have to go up there and manually release the train from the "dog" which could end up with a 20 tonne train on your hand. Health and safety would never allow it.
Another point is that they don't need to focus on speeding up a process that will happen once in a blue moon. AT wouldn't care if it takes another 10 minutes to get and extra 8 people off if it rarely happens.
As for the noise they would have mentioned a silent lift on the plans to improve the chance of the council saying yes. Also the eurofighter chain lift is silent compared to oblivion so it would make no difference.

[Andzdrew]

It isn't on both hills, the vertical lift is designed exactly the same as a drop tower with large copper coloured fins, the sloping lift seems to have very randomly placed and sized pinch brakes, neither of which go up and over the crest so neither of which could replace a ratchet system.

Alton towers have spent lots of money on this design which if it's for the purpose you suggest, is a complete waste of money, the system that they already had was widely accepted and safe, there was no need to change it.

It is far more likely that they have spent this money and designed it this way to be a world's first element.

All these theories about safety or evacuation really dont stand on solid logic, they can be disproven. The idea of a freefall drop is extremely plausible and is very possible with what we see built before our eyes, why is it so hard to think it just might be the case?

And I'm thinking logically, you don't approve plans for an 18m world's first coaster on the grounds that the lifthills don't make a clicking noise. We have seen the ratchet track, there is a ratchet noise in the game... What might make logical sense here?


edit: Thankyou so much kingda dude, I actually presumed enthusiasts on here would understand these principals of safety already, maybe that's why I'm tearing my hair out over what seems obvious to me

[zerotrace]

"Faster" doesn't come into it

False.

Here's a little excerpt from the Wikipedia page on the WindSeeker rides:

...leaving riders stranded at the top of the ride for nearly four hours, prompting the California Occupational Safety and Health Administration to order the ride shut down indefinitely on September 19 pending investigation of both the length of time riders were stranded and the actual causes of the incidents.

[Codmaster]

It isn't on both hills, the vertical lift is designed exactly the same as a drop tower with large copper coloured fins, the sloping lift seems to have very randomly placed and sized pinch brakes, neither of which go up and over the crest so neither of which could replace a ratchet system.

Alton towers have spent lots of money on this design which if it's for the purpose you suggest, is a complete waste of money, the system that they already had was widely accepted and safe, there was no need to change it.

It is far more likely that they have spent this money and designed it this way to be a world's first element.

All these theories about safety or evacuation really dont stand on solid logic, they can be disproven. The idea of a freefall drop is extremely plausible and is very possible with what we see built before our eyes, why is it so hard to think it just might be the case?

And I'm thinking logically, you don't approve plans for an 18m world's first coaster on the grounds that the lifthills don't make a clicking noise. We have seen the ratchet track, there is a ratchet noise in the game... What might make logical sense here?


edit: Thankyou so much kingda dude, I actually presumed enthusiasts on here would understand these principals of safety already, maybe that's why I'm tearing my hair out over what seems obvious to me

Sorry to burst y'alls bubbles, but there isn't a single piece of ratchet tack on this coaster. Just give in, it's a brand new, truly silent, safety feature. That's it.

[Andzdrew]

I was under the impression that ratchet track had been spotted... Is anyone aware of ratchet track on other eurofighters that is visible? It could be that the ratchet is on the cogs themselves

Edit: I've just re-read kingda dudes post regards the chain on eurofighters, the bottom cog has the ratchet, should the chain snap the car drops and compresses the chain underneath, the chain being encapsulated tightly in a trough means the weight of the train is pushing directly along the lenth of the chain to the ratcheted cog at the bottom. The train itself has no ratchet and there is no ratchet track.

This is actually lending itself perfectly to the freefall drop idea, as the train has no ratchet you simply design a special dog that will drop the train once it reaches the crest

[Morgano]

For those arguing that the fins are part of the SW element (freefall) explain why the same system is being used on the other lift?

I believe the fins will simply help transition the train from vertical to horizontal for evac purposes only.

[Codmaster]

I was under the impression that ratchet track had been spotted... Is anyone aware of ratchet track on other eurofighters that is visible? It could be that the ratchet is on the cogs themselves

Rage's lift track:



You can clearly see the ratchets on the left and the right of the chain channel.

However, when compared to The Smiler's lift track:



We can not see any such ratchet rails.

[Rollercoasters4Life]

First off, who is to say Alton Towers requested this? Why couldn't Gerstlauer of implemented a new rollback system to allow for a more efficient evacuation procedure - instead of it being done on the vertical plane, they can roll the train back lower to the ground making it easier. They have developed new trains that have four rows independent of each other that make up a much larger train that still has a tight layout like a Eurofighter - why not improve the evacuation procedure too? I would assume based on feedback from existing Eurofighter that have had to be evacuated that it was a pain to do. Just look at Hurakan at Belantis below:



Doesn't seem a simple process does it? And they didn't even attempt to us the evacuation cart, maybe because it's too much of a pain, and much easier to use the cherry picker?

Also look at this video. That is at the base of the lift hill pretty much too and look how hard it is for someone to climb out at that angle and that isn't even vertical!

If it is for this one off scenario where the "dog" cant hold it for whatever reason and these fins are needed then they would be needed on the entire lift hill as they are not i'm already doubting this.

The fins don't need to go to the top the way I see it. If the train needs to be rolled back/evacuated then there maybe some built in device that disengages the lift and it rolls back under its own momentum. Before it picks up to much speed the fins will slow it down to a gradual pace to which the mechanical brakes at the bottom will control the speed as it reaches the bottom.

Also why go through the effort and the money to make a system that may never be used. After all to roll it back in a  normal situation then someone would have to go up there and manually release the train from the "dog" which could end up with a 20 tonne train on your hand. Health and safety would never allow it.

Because if people thought like that then we would never move on or innovate. If it is needed then it will become a valuable asset to the ride. Don't forget, on the picture of Hurakan at Belantis they used a cherry picker - so if Alton Towers needed a cherry picker to make the evacuation easier then it would be extremely hard for them to do it, as you can see there is very little room. So this is why a new type of rollback may of been thought of.

Also there would be some inbuilt system that allows the train to disengage from the lift and won't be done by someone manually doing it by (litterally) hand.

Another point is that they don't need to focus on speeding up a process that will happen once in a blue moon. AT wouldn't care if it takes another 10 minutes to get and extra 8 people off if it rarely happens.

Alton Towers would want the system to be as flawless as possible and doing the current way of evacuating is a real pain. With 16 people instead of 8 the problem is exacerbated - Always build for the 'what if' rather than not.

As for the noise they would have mentioned a silent lift on the plans to improve the chance of the council saying yes. Also the Eurofighter chain lift is silent compared to oblivion so it would make no difference.

Also if it is for a new way to evacuate then the quieter lift hill will be an after bonus rather than being the original key agenda - that being a new way to evacuate a train from a vertical plane. If they are going to use this method on the vertical lift, then why not incorporate it into the normal lift too. Getting people off on a flat level is much easier than doing it at an angle and much more efficient.

The reason for the stairs on the first lift are for maintenance purposes (like the catwalks on the airtime hill for the trim brakes) and the reason for the usual evacuation pod on the side is so mechanics can reach the top of the lift hill and inspect the components up there (there is no room for normal spiral stairs to the top). The evacuation pod could also be used in the event that the chain snaps. Maybe the new evacuation system isn't meant for when a chain snaps but is there for the other times.

Don't forget, this is probably one of Gerstlauer biggest projects so far and it show the rest of the parks around the world what they are capable of. Higher capacity trains, improved way of evacuating a vertical lift and still all able to fit it all into a compact footprint.

[SonicChips]

I would have "quoted" the above, but part of my finger has just been filed away scrolling through it so I'll save everyone else the hassle. I would, however, like to comment briefly on the above novella by saying:

Interesting.......

That bit's not sarcastic, by the way. Well said and very comprehensive. In fact - you've earned yourself a much sought after SonicChips "thanks"!

:O

[kingda dude]

For those arguing that the fins are part of the SW element (freefall) explain why the same system is being used on the other lift?

I believe the fins will simply help transition the train from vertical to horizontal for evac purposes only.

Potentially this could be a 'random encounter' occurrence (partially to help timing) and the chain could 'snap' on either lift at on any ride. You could go on a ride and not encounter the drop, your ride could experience one of the drops, or you could be unfortunate and have the chain "snap" on both lift hills.

I am pretty certain that the ratchet has been removed to allow for backwards travel on the lift hills, as opposed to sound/new roll back system, if you didn't read my last post:

It won't be a New roll back system as it is much to expensive to warrant it for a rare event, they already have the lift for evacuation they don't need to drop the car back down to the bottom. It is also extremely unsafe to allow the car to drop backwards down the lift hill in a emergency!

It isn't noise related as the ratchets on eurofighters only deploy when the catch isn't being held by the dog and hence are virtually silent.

I would say that the lift chain is capable of holding the train and the provision of multiple dogs on the chain would adequately support a car on the vertical whilst it is evacuated. Gerstlauer wouldn't make a new, larger, car without reinforcing the catch/dog and chain mechanism, otherwise that is called BAD engineering.

Of course I could be wrong, I am only making assumptions after all, but there is logic behind my thoughts.

[RobJackson85]

Are we 100% sure they were staff? I was there on Saturday and three people were up at the top of the vertical lift hill that day for a number of hours. Maybe the evacuation carts main purpose in The Smilers sense is that its there for ease of access to the top of the lift hill to check components and also there as a backup evacuation system for whatever reason the other one encounters problems.

This part sums up the whole argument for me.

Looking at the most recent aerial views, there is no possible way to get to the top of the vertical lift other than using the external lift.

I'd go all out now, and put money on it, that the external lift is a maintenance lift and the fins are there solely to aid in the lowering of cars if/when ever there is a fault.

Also, to further aid in this argument, the external lift is only on one side of the track? (please correct me if wrong) If this is the case, then how on earth do you expect persons sat in a vertical position, on the far side of the train, manoeuvre themselves across 3 other seats and into an adjoining lift?

Bear in mind, that some people riding this coaster could be less able than others, suffer from disabilities, and maybe paralysis from the waist down. How do you expect them to clamber across?

To put it simply, if my girlfriend and I where to get stuck on this ride, I (being the daredevil/daft sod that I am) could possibly climb across and get into the lift, yet my girlfriend, would for a fact not be able todo this due to being frozen with fear.

[Andzdrew]

Well I'm really glad that everyone is so enthusiastic about this new once in a decade (if that) user friendly evacuation design they've implemented, money well spent hey 

[Rollercoasters4Life]

Well I'm really glad that everyone is so enthusiastic about this new once in a decade (if that) user friendly evacuation design they've implemented, money well spent hey 

Once again, Gerstlauer might of implemented this rather than Alton Towers asking for it. I'm not enthusiastic about it as its just an update to a safety feature. I'm just writing about the most logical (in my opinion) option for these fins. Although, if it does turn out to be for the roll-back evacuation then it will be another feature improved upon. Might not mean that much for everyone, but for the people that may, one day get stuck it will prove useful. Just because it isn't something mind blowing and a major feature of the ride doesn't mean it isn't money well spent - In Alton Towers' eyes it will be.

Personally think it maybe Gerstlauer that have implemented this over Alton anyway and I can see this being used on this type of Eurofighter from here on out.

[Boz]

This appears to have been missed by a number of people, or just plain ignored.
Can ALL members please read the new posting guidelines found here, before posting anything further.
Team TTF will now be enforcing these guidelines rigorously, in order to improve everyone's enjoyment of the forum.

Thanks in advance
Boz

[temleh]

I've just read the 2010 LTDP Noise Report from Alton Towers. In there, it says how Alton approached B&M to change Oblivion's anti-rollback into the non contact fin version to reduce noise after the court cases. B&M said it was impractical and it didn't happen.

I think that pretty much confirms the fins are nothing to do with a worlds first and that Gerstlauer are simply following Alton's noise restrictions!

EDIT: Section 3.5 of this document:

http://www.altontowersheritage.com/publ ... port_1.pdf