The Smiler - Speculation

Smile always. New for 2013.
Locked
User avatar
Nightfall
Member
Member
Posts: 2195
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:10 am
Location: Cambridge

All good points and mostly valid. I will pick out a few things though.

You've left out the big one that accelerating in the rain would be unbearable painful. There are ways round it but I’d say that’s the main issue.
Blaze wrote: Starting vertically is harder, plus it means the ride won't pick up as much speed as it could starting off flat and continuing to accelerate.
True, but we can definitively rule out a flat to vertical launch as the transition is too sharp. Maybe at very low speeds.
Blaze wrote:Shot towers do it, but shot towers are a lot taller so can launch harder and faster.
Again true. I'd guess that from top to bottom it's about half the size of Oblivion [citation needed] which admittedly does limit it. They could always have magnetic breaks at the top to slow the acceleration even more, but that's just another added expense.
Blaze wrote: Plus, if it was to launch from a standing vertical start, how would it get into that position? If it's a single car, it will need to be pushed/pulled up, so why bother stopping to start again? It would waste energy, and working against gravity like it would be, this would be undesirable.
I've found a good example since my last post:

Image
Catch cart inclined Launch! Not vertical I know but the technology is getting on in age now. In 2005 they managed to alter the launch to make it more powerful with simple adjustments. But importantly it catches the cart lower down the cannon and then can move it up to the launch position. Great video here if you haven’t already seen it.

Like I said; flawed idea but still a possibility. It’s Just like debating SW6 all over again  :P
Last edited by Nightfall on Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[align=center]Image[/align]
User avatar
Dcarts2412
New Member
New Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:51 pm
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Recently I had been thinking to myself about what storyline SW7 could be based around, and considering it is planned to be in X-Sector (that is if it isn't re-themed by 2013) I was wondering if the Lord Of Darkness (Man In The Oblivion Queue Line Video) would be involved in it at all? I highly doubt it but i was just thinking of his voice "This Ride Is Perfectly Safe" and wondering to myself how cool it would be to have him involved even just a little bit in the storyline and concept of SW7 :)
User avatar
Nemesis94
New Member
New Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:55 am
Location: Sheffield

Ready for a mini-revelation?

This will be a long post, so bare with me. But it might put to bed some of the persistant Maurer talk, but in the process will open up some interesting questions about the track SW7 will use.

The drawings for a coaster submitted in the planning documents, are (usually) from the manufacturer, laid over the architect's plans for the area. Case in point is Swarm's plans. If you look at the fencing plan, at the transfer track, you will notice it is slightly greyed out and saying "Revised transfer track awaited from B&M" check for yourself here:

http://www.thorpeparkmania.co.uk/viewphoto/3257

I think the same is the case for the other recent planning applications, Saw and Thirteen. Look carefully and you will see that these are far too acurate to be a simple architect's drawing.

Now on to SW7, and the drawings for the coaster are from none other than... No Limits! XD

You know the saying that you stare at something too long and you miss the obvious. Well, I haven't looked at the drawings for over a week now, but when I looked at them again today I had an epiphany. There are two things that give away that the coaster is a No Limits drawing, the track and supports. I shall deal with the latter first:

Look at the top of the support on this drawing:
Image

And now to the top of this one in No Limits:
Image

Now you may think I'm a whizz in No Limits, but I'm not THAT good! The support top is the standard design for a post support in No Limits. There are a number of these scattered about the drawings, try and find them yourself (they're mainly near the Toilet block). If you look closely at the drawings, you will also see some "custom" supports (ones you draw yourself) cutting through the track, which means whoever did the drawing wasn't careful with the placing of the nodes (between which you place a support).

Look at these two instances here. I really hope that the real coaster doesn't do this!
Image

Now to the track. If this is really from a No Limits drawing it stands to reason that the coaster is one of the standard options. And it is, the track is non other than that of the default Schwarzkopf coaster design.

First picture: Real Schwarzkopf track. Second: No Limits Schwarzkopf track. Third: SW7 Plans track. Apologies the picture isn't the greatest. Look at the triangular shape of the rail ties and the distance between them. Anyone with No Limits feel free to check it out in more detail yourself.
Image

I'm not sure why everything looks so angular (and there are slight differences), but I imagine the 3D render in No Limits has been simplified in another design package that distorts things a little (hence why the tubular rails and supports are made up of octagons, and why the backbone looks ever so slightly smaller).

So to all those people who have been saying it is Maurer/S&S track, it is in fact good old Schwarzkopf track. XD

Now what significance does this have? Which manufacturer has often used No Limits to represent its rides? Gerstlauer! (Speed: No Limits anyone?) By the way, the founder of Gerstlauer was a previous Schwarzkopf employee. Admittedly, it could also be that the No Limit drawing of the ride has been done by someone at Merlin (I've heard John Wardley likes to use it).

But does this mean that SW7 is going to use track from a 1980's design? Probably not, but I'm only guessing here.

It could be that Gerstlauer are still working on the drawings, so they have used the Schwarzkopf track as an interim, perhaps as they work out which sections of track will be ladder, and which tri-track. But if this is in fact to be a Eurofighter, why not just switch the design in No Limits to a Eurofighter (it takes about 3 seconds). Remember, we do not think the ride itself needs planning permission, just the station.

It could be (like most of us suspect) that they have come up with a new design of track, and the Schwarskopf track in No Limits is what best resembles this new track. But why? It's completely different to Eurofighter track (it's narrower for one). Let the debate commence! XD

Whilst I was looking at my No Limits recreation using Schwarzkopf track, I decided to try 3-car trains. And it actually runs suprisingly well. I'm not saying that SW7 will use these, as we simply cannot say based on these drawings. It could be a Eurofighter as we all suspect, or it could have some completely new style of car or train.

I'll end with a couple of pictures:

Duelling 3-car trains in No Limits. Ignore the chunky supports, they were positioned to suit Eurofighter track.
Image

And finally, this is what the ride will look like if it does actually use 1980's Schwarzkopf track.
Image
Last edited by Nemesis94 on Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
See my No Limits recreation of SW7 (filmed by JAMMYD777) at
User avatar
Nightfall
Member
Member
Posts: 2195
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:10 am
Location: Cambridge

That is Brilliant :D I wish I'd used NoLimits before now!

So this changes everything. I'm actually more inclined to believe now that the track is going to be standard Gerstlauer and they have in fact used this design to test what a longer cart would look like. Can you test Euro-fighters with 3 or more carts in NoLimits? If not I'm sure this is why they didn't use their own Design.

Good Spot!
[align=center]Image[/align]
User avatar
Nemesis94
New Member
New Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:55 am
Location: Sheffield

Nightfall wrote: Can you test Euro-fighters with 3 or more carts in NoLimits? If not I'm sure this is why they didn't use their own Design.
No you can't. The option to add extra cars is greyed out for both Eurofighter designs. Though I imagine that Gerstlauer can re-write the No Limits coding to do whatever they want. But remember, the sound report compares SW7 to SAW. This could be because they both will use similar, single cars, or similar tri and ladder track, or just that it is designed/manufactured by the same people, so will create a similar noise.
See my No Limits recreation of SW7 (filmed by JAMMYD777) at
User avatar
DomB
Member
Member
Posts: 776
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:06 pm

Well this changes things then.

What I (and many) suspected is new track is what I'm now more inclined to believe is just a 'fairly' quick mock-up of the layout in No Limits, with them having not changed the track style. I'm guessing that it will be standard Gerstlauer  track, although I do hope for a change in trains, as throughput is going to be poor with so little brake zones.
Image
User avatar
LordOfDarkness
Member
Member
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:53 pm
Location: Leicester

It seems slightly strange to put all that detail into No Limits & Using custom supports etc. and not change the track...

I'm still confused and shall remain on the fence at the time being.

But in the mean time:

Image

Premier Rides Comapny uses the Schwarzkopf track deisgn.
[align=center]Image

SamRyan ~ @SamRyanSport [/align]
User avatar
wburgess
Member
Member
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:30 pm
Location: London, Somewhere

Serious kudos for Nemesis94...

Thats some proper quincy detective work going on there!
User avatar
sibic
Member
Member
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:29 pm

just a question but would the new Schwarzkopf inspired track be less noticeable at a distance?
User avatar
AdamPanic
Member
Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:50 pm

Does any know the size of the holes in the "interacting feature"? Is it wide enough for Oblivion sized trains? ie 8x2rows.
User avatar
Nemesis94
New Member
New Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:55 am
Location: Sheffield

LordOfDarkness wrote: It seems slightly strange to put all that detail into No Limits & Using custom supports etc. and not change the track...
Custom supports don't take that long, I did my recreation in under 2 days. In fact, I used entirely custom supports, where the drawings have used some simple "plug in" ones here and there.
LordOfDarkness wrote: Premier Rides Comapny uses the Schwarzkopf track deisgn.
No they don't. They use SIMILAR track. Look at the two images below for comparison, especially the rail ties (huge fabricated triangular sector, against a single piece of cut steel). The track in No Limits is this style of Schwarzkopf track used on the larger travelling coasters (Olympia Looping, Alpina Bahn, Thriller...). It is seriously heavy duty, because it had to withstand being put together and taken apart on a frequent basis. And also so you could stack the track on a lorry whilst it moved to a different fair. The only other coaster track anywhere near as sturdy as this is the new Intamin track.

Schwarzkopf: Thriller
Image

Premier: Mr Freeze
Image

Images courtesy of RCDB.

A final note, No Limits has Premier track and trains as one of its options. So if they were building it, why not use that track?
See my No Limits recreation of SW7 (filmed by JAMMYD777) at
User avatar
Nemesis94
New Member
New Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:55 am
Location: Sheffield

sibic wrote: just a question but would the new Schwarzkopf inspired track be less noticeable at a distance?
If it's anything like Magnum Force and The Bullet at Flamingoland used to be, it will be &^$^%£&%* noisy!!!!

Admittedly, it could have been the old Schwarzkopf trains that were the source of most of the noise, and not actually the track. I believe Intimidator 305's pretty quiet, so it could just be that wheel assemblies and bearings have come on a long way.

Had one quick thought overnight, maybe they used the Schwarzkopf track in No Limits to pay homage to his design for 1991. See the article by Sam here:
http://sw7.towerstimes.co.uk/177/secret ... connection
See my No Limits recreation of SW7 (filmed by JAMMYD777) at
User avatar
Nightfall
Member
Member
Posts: 2195
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:10 am
Location: Cambridge

Nemesis94 wrote: No you can't. The option to add extra cars is greyed out for both Eurofighter designs. Though I imagine that Gerstlauer can re-write the No Limits coding to do whatever they want.
Well they could have but what's probably more likely is that No Limits does not have a middle cart model so extending the trains would be impossible.
Nemesis94 wrote: But remember, the sound report compares SW7 to SAW. This could be because they both will use similar, single cars, or similar tri and ladder track, or just that it is designed/manufactured by the same people, so will create a similar noise.
This has been what's bugging me. For noise purposes changing the track could make quite a big difference. Just listen to B&Ms famous roar. Changing from one track design to another and claiming it is the same model is quite an overstatement. However changing the carts from 2 rows to multiple rows would have far less impact on the noise read out. This is why if anything changes I expect it is more likely the cart design than the track.

However what you've pointed out could mean anything. That is definitely Schwarzkopf track. I’ve been looking through all the manufactures and couldn’t find anyone with such a distinctive design. But I hadn’t looked at defunct manufactures and now you’ve pointed it out it is definitely a fit. It is odd they haven’t used a standard Eurofighter which suggests something has changed, exactly what though will be impossible to know.
[align=center]Image[/align]
User avatar
Javs
Member
Member
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:56 am
Location: Southern UK

Going on that logic, the noise regulation planning has been done on Saw, therefor we will see Gerstlauer style track the same as Saw and not the track in the plans?
User avatar
DomB
Member
Member
Posts: 776
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:06 pm

Javs wrote: Going on that logic, the noise regulation planning has been done on Saw, therefor we will see Gerstlauer style track the same as Saw and not the track in the plans?
I'm inclined to believe this.

On another note, does anyone know if Wardley is involved in this at all?
Image
User avatar
Morgano
Member
Member
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:09 pm
Contact:

Someone on coasterforce or themeparkreview mentioned the same thing about it being a nolimits export a while back around the release of the coaster plans but no one really took any notice.

Thanks for putting it more clear hopefully people will take note of this now and stop guessing the manufacturer based on the plans.
User avatar
CrazyTowers
New Member
New Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:31 pm
Location: No where near Alton Towers.

I reckon a good name would be Project X. Purely because of the fact that it's in X sector, or something along those lines. Wonder what the under-ground section will feature, a Black Hole? Heh heh heh.
It's been a while.
User avatar
Morgano
Member
Member
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:09 pm
Contact:

To clear up comments regarding further submission of documents the statement is made here:
Whilst the drawings submitted with the application demonstrate the maximum size of the buildings and theming proposed, the detailed materials, coloured elevations and theming of the coaster are being developed
in more detail and will be submitted at later date, prior to the application being taken to committee.  This has been agreed with officers at Staffordshire Moorlands District Council.
It also appears they are pretty confident in getting this approved and have already discussed the application prior to submission:
The positioning of the new rollercoaster and associated buildings and structures are shown on drawings 373/78-2 and 373/78-4 that have been submitted as part of the planning application submission.  Alton Towers has discussed the proposed development with planning officers at Staffordshire Moorlands District Council. The key objective has been to provide a rollercoaster that will have a minimum impact on its surroundings ad that is contained within the General Permitted Development area.
Target date is: 14/02/2012, Sub-Terra was approved 60 days after it's submission to the council, 35 days before its target date. I would genuinely expect to see the detailed themeing plans to be submitted shortly and hopefully see some sort of approval within the next two weeks.

Source: Link
User avatar
Boz
New Member
New Member
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:29 am
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire

I really didn't wan't to bring up the manufacturer debate again. I believe the wording in the noise report to be accurate, in that the manufacturer of SW7 is definitely going to be the same as Saw, and until 5 mins ago i believed this to be Gerstlauer. however a thought occurred that might cause controversy.

i remembered back to this post
sibic wrote: it seem that euro fighter and xcar tracks are made by the same company as are .intamin's tracks http://www.stakotra.sk so no reason that Gerstlauer could not use the same track as the xcar.
and realised that the noise report could well mean that the manufacturer is still the same but that doesn't necessarily mean Gerstlauer, but perhaps the third party manufacturer of the track itself!

i should point out that only yesterday I was religious in the idea that it IS going to be Gerstlauer, only after thinking about it, now I'm not so certain. Its all in the wording, your thoughts?
User avatar
Nemesis94
New Member
New Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:55 am
Location: Sheffield

Boz wrote: i remembered back to this post
sibic wrote: it seem that euro fighter and xcar tracks are made by the same company as are .intamin's tracks http://www.stakotra.sk so no reason that Gerstlauer could not use the same track as the xcar.
and realised that the noise report could well mean that the manufacturer is still the same but that doesn't necessarily mean Gerstlauer, but perhaps the third party manufacturer of the track itself!

i should point out that only yesterday I was religious in the idea that it IS going to be Gerstlauer, only after thinking about it, now I'm not so certain. Its all in the wording, your thoughts?
The question to ask if you don't think it is Gerstlauer, is why pick SAW for the noise report? When there are 4 other intamin rides at Alton and Thorpe to choose from. Intamin and Gerstlauer track is virtually the same afterall, just the latter is slightly larger. My own thinking is that this will be a Gerstlauer Eurofighter, but with a new track design, possibly similar to the new track being used by Intamin. Hence the Schwarzkopf track was used for the drawings because it was the closest fit.
See my No Limits recreation of SW7 (filmed by JAMMYD777) at
Locked