Roper update

[Dormiens-Dave]

Sad thing is the money that has been spent on this could have paid for the bypass which is an issue i actually agree with the locals on.

[MatthewR1990]

The noise from the park is only ever a large amount during opening hours surely? Now I'm no genius but how exactly does this noise level which I doubt is really that loud, really bother there lives? It doesn't keep them awake at night as the park is closed. They don't open the park ridiculously early so it doesn't wake them up? In the daytime you might be able to hear a little bit of noise but how is it different to general traffic and noise pollution everybody has to deal with? I see this as very selfish. The Park obviously brings a lot of jobs and money into the economy and to try and ruin that just because they might here the odd bit of noise whilst watching midsummer murders, well it's almost pathetic.

[Bote]

While Alton are in no way immune from the law, it is also important to remember that just because the Ropers have a good solicitor does not really make them more likely to win. Yes it no doubt gives them a stronger case, but also remember that Merlin Entertainments has it's own legal team, who will more than likely also be building a case in favour of the park.

Oblivion was modified after the last (Or another) complaint I believe, which involved them changing some parts of the lift mechanism, in an attempt to minimise noise wasn't it? Technology has come a long way since then, and if needed to B&M could probably make further modifications to try and minimise the noise from the ride further (New tyres, new wheel assemblies, and so on).

At this stage the courts could rule either way. However, given that the case has already been rejected before, I would say there could be a slight advantage in Towers' favour. If the Ropers have such a strong case, and claims or false information and facts then why was the case thrown out in the past? Sure these things take time to bring together, but even if they hadn't got a solid case at the time they must have had something they could call on? Forging information, and falsifying facts is a serious matter in any legal proceeding. Would a judge reject a case if there was even a chance of such? I doubt it.

[dmmosh1]

Based of the info poster by garyh (thanks dude) I looked at there location in terms of the park and I find it very confusing

I did not know where there house was unitll i saw it on the map, I always assumed that they lived more towards alton village going into the valley closer to oblivion and thats why they could hear it, i find it shocking that they are complaining about noise  :blah:

When I have stayed at the star caravan park ive had to walk from there to towers and back, i have walked to towers when blivvy would of been fully open with loads of guests and i never once heard any thing from it or sonic. I could not even hear any screaming and this was at 11:30am ish.

The only time ive heard blivvy making noise is when i was walking to alton village and I was at the side of he towers, I could hear blivvy and screams but they were no louder then people chatting in a coffie shop (i know coffie shop chatter isnt a standard unit of measurement but you ge the idea)

[Johno]

The council have at no point opposed any of these attractions. The point of planning applications, when submitted with a noise report; is to ensure there is no reasonable opposition.

The Roper's main point was that Alton were breaking a noise order placed upon them, and therefore were attacked for it.

I would imagine Alton may place an offer for the Roper's house to them, 50% above what it is actually worth.

If the Roper's don't use their house, or live there for any substantial amount of time; they wouldn't have a leg to stand on, if Alton have been 'more than reasonable' in compensating them.

[AstroDan]

I do not believe there is any chance of any rides at Alton Towers being forced to close.

Alton Towers is a massive economic advantage to Staffordshire - for jobs and the local economy. One good thing about a Tory led government, is that they are massively pro-business.

They simply would not put Alton Towers' massive importance at risk.

[garyh]

Long post alert!!  But an interesting read!!Here is a breakdown of the appeal lodged by the Ropers and some of the key points:

On 1 November 2004 Deputy District Judge Gascoigne made an abatement order and fined the respondents the maximum £5000. On 11 November 2004 the respondents appealed against both conviction and the abatement notice and the fine

Alton Towers were fined the maximum 5 grand fine as they were found to be making a noise nuicance.  Alton said they would appeal.

On 21 July 2005 HH Judge Everard, sitting with justices, dismissed the appeal against conviction

Alton towers appeal was turned down.

On 14 October 2005 the appeal in respect of the fine was upheld and a lower fine of £3500 was substituted. The appeal against the abatement order similarly was upheld and a new abatement order was made. It is against the terms of that order that this appeal by way of case stated proceeds.

Alton won their second appeal but still had to pay a fine of 3500.  The original abatement order was withdrawn, and a new one drawn up.  The Ropers are appealing against this new abatement order (i.e. they are not happy with it).

On 4 July 2006 the Ropers argued that the court had not been fair and had not released all the evidence.  They argued too many questions had been asked (Merlin making it difficult for them), that the court had not taken everything into account etc.  Mr Justice Collins refused this.

On 21 July 2005 the Crown Court delivered a reasoned ruling rejecting the defendant's appeal against the finding of statutory nuisance:

Alton Towers made the following arguements against the Ropers....

"I deal next with the character of the area. Alton Towers, since 1979, has been a theme park. It is one of the largest if not the largest in the country. Prior to 1979 it has a long history of being open to the public as a place of recreation enjoyed by many thousands of people and we have heard evidence about the history, interesting as it was. In the circumstances, in our judgment, it is unrealistic to expect that there will never be any noise emanating from the site. The local inhabitants must expect some inconvenience from noise from the site."

Its a theme park, it has been since 1979 so its unreasonable not to expect some noise.

"The fact that planning permission has been granted is relevant to what Mr Caplan has referred to - and we have adopted his phrase - as the "character of the area". However, the fact that planning permission has been granted does not, of course, give Alton Towers licence to make such noise as amounts to an unreasonable interference with the use and/or enjoyment of land..."

Mr Caplan is part of the Alton Towers legal team.  He is saying that planning permission has been granted for everything built at Alton Towers over the years.  The Ropers have replied fair enough, but doesnt give them the right to interfere with the surrounding area.

he has long experience as an environmental health officer, 19 years in total, from 1975 to 1994 which we consider to be important in this case. In relation to machinery noise, tannoys and screams, Mr Stigwood has not simply restricted himself to the British Standard 4142, he has also considered the World Health Organisation guidelines, and he refers to that in his December 2003 report at page 35 and he has also considered the British Standard 7445 and he refers to that in his December report at page 38. By contrast, in our judgment, Mr Sharps has assessed the noise levels almost exclusively from the World Health Organisation guideline values....

A cap called Mr Stigwood has been taking the noise readings for Alton Towers.  Alton are argeuing that not only is this guy very skilled and experienced, but he has not only taken readings against the British Standard, but also World Health Organisation standards.  Alton have said it is not relevent to compare the noise levels of the park when it is closed to the park when it is open, as Alton repeat:

We have already said that, given the character of the area and the existence of Alton Towers as a recreational site for many many years, that it is unrealistic that there will never be any noise emanating from the theme park and we have already said, and I repeat, that the local inhabitants must expect some inconvenience from this type of noise from the site."


This now relates to the new abatement order....

As to the noise abatement order, we confess that drafting the proper and fair order has not been an easy task. We should add, perhaps the obvious, that the experts on either side were at times at complete loggerheads as to, for example, whether certain measurements could be accurately made at Farley House or not.

The Ropers live in Farley House.  The arguement is that the order isnt clear, that there have been arguements on both sides, and how can the new noise levels be measured at the Ropers house.

The order which we pass must be one, first of all, which will abate the nuisance but equally it must not be so draconian that its effect would be to close Alton Towers or seriously affect its ability to function as a commercial concern and also it must be clear and enforceable.

The Ropers are stating they do not want to close Alton Towers or damage it commercially, they just want the noise nuisance to stop.  They are saying the new abatement order must be measurable.

Having heard from Mr Stigwood and from Mr Sharps on behalf of the appellant, our judgment is that Mr Sharps' draft order is in principle to be preferred. It is our judgment that it is to be commended for its clarity, it abates the nuisance and it is an order with which Alton Towers should have no difficulty in complying. However, there is one caveat to that. The level which he sets out at paragraph 1, under the heading of "Daily Operation of the Site" at the second page of his proposed abatement order we believe is too high. The appropriate level, in our judgment, is 40 decibels

Mr Sharp (noise officer for Alton) and Mr Stigwood (equivellent for the Ropers) have submitted a document highlighting how Alton can cut noise.  The Ropers have actually sided with Alton's officer, saying that Alton should have no problem abiding by the reduction in noise plans.  They are pushing for a maximum noise level of 40db.

As to concerts, we agree with the appellant's argument that the proper and fair way for the abatement of concert noise to be achieved is to ensure that they comply with the Noise Council's Code of Practice on Environmental Noise. We do not think it reasonable or fair to restrict Alton Towers in the number of concerts they are able to hold or to impose any higher burden than that imposed by the Code of Practice.............In any event, if they end up having four and the noise is exceeded in the fourth then Alton Towers would be in breach of the order

Ok concerts..  The Ropers have agreed with Alton Towers that as long as Alton abide by the Noise Councils code of Practice then they should be ok.  The Ropers do not want to restrict how many concerts Alton can hold, but if they hold more than 4 and the noise levels are exceeded, then they will be breaking the law.

We accepted that the level of 43dbA for all the relevant noises from Alton Towers reflected the circumstances that we found constituted a statutory nuisance at Farley House, and that this was the level used by both noise experts..as a basis upon which to assess the noise at Farley House


At the Ropers house, both Altons and their own noise experts found the noise levels to be 43db.  According to British Standards "At 40dbA "BS 4142 complaints are predicted"

We accepted the recommendation made in BS 4142 that, in assessing the impact of noise, a correction of plus 5db should be made for noise which contains distinguishable, discrete, continuous notes (such as screams), distinct impulses (bangs, clatters) and/or whose character is irregular enough to attract attention. We found that the noises from Alton Towers mentioned in the order were of this type, and that such a character correction should be made in assessing the impact of the noise and in setting the noise level or levels in the order.

Although the noise levels were found to be 43db, according to British Standards, the Ropers want the noise level recorded to be 48db due to the types of noises coming from the park.

We rejected the level of 45dbA put forward by Mr Sharps is his proposed order. We accepted Mr Sharps' evidence that some of the levels set out in Mr Stigwood's draft were incapable of measurement or calculation at Farley House. We found that several of the individual levels set out in Mr Stigwood's draft were too low to be reasonably achievable

Altons noise expert wanted a noise level of 45db, which would have meant Alton were mostly already within the new noise levels.  Mr Stigwood (Ropers noise guy) produced figures which were found to be inaccurate, and the noise level wanted by Mr Stigwood were not possible for Alton to achive (in effect the Ropers are siding with Alton on this one).

We found that the noise from the operation of the rides and screaming each constituted a nuisance on their own, given the frequency and regularity of such noise which we had heard during the evidence.......We accepted that noise energy aggregates, so that the noise from the operation of the rides and the screaming could constitute a nuisance at levels below 43db on their own..........We found that the noises found at Farley House from Alton Towers can be of short duration, and that these types of noise events could be nuisances in themselves if they continued to occur on a frequent and regular basis

Lots of talk here about the types of noises the Ropers are complaining about from their house, and in particular noises of short duration could be more annoying than the overall hourly noise, and that hourly average noise measurements were not an acceptable way to monitor the overall noise levels at the Ropers property.

We accepted that there may be some commercial impact on Alton Towers from the order, but we had no evidence before us on the level of that impact...or the effect that would have on its viability.

The Ropers agree there may be a commercial impact on the park, and seem concerned about this given that it was mentioned earlier, but they dont know what that impact would be.

We found that it will not be possible for the Ropers to check to see if the general steps required by the order have been carried out or maintained or to what standard.

As it stands in the current new abatement order which has been drawn up, the Ropers are not happy because they cannot check to see what has been done and if the noise levels have actually reduced.

Going back to concerts:

d. sets no music noise levels (NMLs) for locations which are rural venues "normally used for major organised events" and the guidance in table 1 of the Code of Practice for 1 to 3 events does not apply and..

39. We found that Alton Towers is a rural location "normally used for major organised events" as defined in the Code of Practice."

Although Alton said they would agree to abide by the Council code of practice for concerts, upon checking the code of practice, it would appear that there isnt a maximum noise level for events in rural locations, and that Alton is classed as a rural location, so in effect, they could have concerts as loud as they wanted.

Mr Hockman submits that the court erred in law in imposing an order setting the maximum noise level as high as 40db. He says that it is irreconcilable with the facts found and was illegitimately influenced by commercial considerations.

Mr Hockman is representing the Ropers, he is argueing that the 40db limit has been influenced by the commerical considerations of the theme park, rather than the rule of law.  They argue that the British Standard of anything over 40db will result in complaints, and given they are wanting to add 5db to the noise levels, it would appear they are actually aiming for 35db, and a maxiumum short period maximum level of 40db.

Furthermore he emphasises that, consistently, the Crown Court approached this case on the basis that "local inhabitants must expect some inconvenience from noise from Alton Towers". He therefore argues that it was by no means irrational of the Crown Court to fix a maximum level of 40dbA which it knew would be likely to generate complaints because the generation of complaints is not synonymous with the existence of a statutory nuisance. The Crown Court had determined that a statutory nuisance arose where measured noise levels were in the range between 43db and 52db

Alton and the Crown Court agreed that the locals must expect some noise, and that the 40db noise limit was realistic.  Although complaints may be received, they were to be expected given the nature of the business.  The court only found the noise to be excessive when it exceeded 43db.

I have no doubt that the conclusion of the court was a surprise to the appellants who had, no doubt, hoped for a more exacting standard to be set. No doubt such a decision would have been open to the court as a rational exercise of its judgment..........In my judgment, the order which the Crown Court made was consistent with its approach throughout, including its repeatedly stated view that "local inhabitants must expect some inconvenience from noise from Alton Towers", had regard to the range of guidance available to it and cannot be characterised as irreconcilable with abatement of the nuisance, or irrational or the decision of a tribunal which must have taken leave of its senses

Here the Ropers main appeal against the new abatement notice is that it isnt clear enough, its vague, doesnt given the Ropers any way to check if the noise levels have reduced, and then goes on to blast the court, saying they were of the opinion that locals must expect some noise, and in effect saying the court had lost its senses!!!  Pretty strong stuff.

What he says is that there should also have been some provision in the order entitling them to access for the purposes of inspection. Whilst, no doubt, that would have been an improvement in the order it cannot, in my judgment, be said to be an error of law to exclude it. The main thrust of the order is the imposition of the maximum noise level at 40dbA. Whether or not the defendant is complying with that will be capable of being monitored by the appellants

THis is the Ropers solicitors report, argueing that they again cannot monitor the noise from Alton, to check they are not breaking the rules, and they want regular inspections and a method for the Ropers to check noise levels.  Again they are pressing for the maximum noise level of 40db (average). 

The fourth discrete point concerns the construction of the order. It is said that it is not clear whether the abatement order concerning daily operation of the site would still operate at times when the specific provisions of the order concerning concerts and firework displays are in play

Again, another point of the appeal is with regards lack of any clear rules regardling concerts and fireworks displays in the new abatement notice.

The final part goes on to mention refusal to admit evidence on the part of Alton Towers and the court ruling with them which the Ropers solicitors are not happy about.

So in summary:

The ropers want a MAX average sound volume of 40db, though realistically it would have to be 35dba.
They want inspections, and monitoring devices and a way of measuring the noise to check alton are complying
They want clear guidelines with regards concerts and fireworks, with clear noise level limits for these events.  If Alton breach these of 4 occassions in the year, they will be in breach of their abatement notice
The Ropers dont want to close Alton or make them go out of business

Basically, it seems the Ropers have a good case in that the Crown Court ruling wasnt clear, it didnt finalise the abatement notice, and basically gave Alton permission to carry on as they have been, because the abatement notice doesnt really detail anything.  This basically would win in the the High Court because it seems the Crown Court was complacent, and almost to the point that they had taken the side of Alton Towers, and under the impression that all locals must expect noise.  I have to admit, reading this, it doesnt seem the Ropers are being unreasonable here - they just want this finalised in black and white with a means of checking Alton are behaving.......

[Delta79]

garyh thank you for taking the time to create a very interesting post.

It has been reported that Mr Roper is a retired chairman of a company that has had noise complaints itself, and he is still a stakeholder in this company. So I wonder if as a stakeholder he is asking questions over the noise complaints reported in the media with the company management?

It has been stated in this thread that they don't live at the house affected by reported noise for a large part of the year. where does this information come from?

It is reported that they own 3 properties. does anyone know, what and where the other 2 are, and they use?

And then there is the big question. I see from aerial photos that there are some houses in the same area as theirs, has there been any major complaints from these households??

[rah_rah]

I dont see what all the fuss is about Alton will just purchase their property as soon as the opportunity arrives, I have reason to believe thats their current intention as theyve already done it with houses around the park, not just the old bagshaw home. Once they gradually buy up all the properties around the park and tenants are unable to make an issue of the noise the problem will be solved. And who said they had no money for a relief road!

[PeteB]

Long post alert!!  But an interesting read!!Here is a breakdown of the appeal lodged by the Ropers and some of the key points:

That was an excellent post mate!

However I have to disagree with your closing statement about the ropers trying to be reasonable.  It's all "smoke and mirrors" trying to make the ropers seem like decent respectable people who just want whats fair.  This is NOT the case. It's an act for the courts!

People on here keep saying "well if the ropers win, rides will be modified, they wont close so its no big deal" but I think you're all missing the point entirely.  The ropers will NEVER give up. After this it'll be another thing. They are hell bent on ruining the park. Oblivion, the concerts, and fireworks are all easy targets. Other rides will come into the line of fire next after they win this case. They'll find a way to argue that "alton are still a nuisance".

There's only 1 ride in the whole park which I think makes too much noise and that is Rita. Not the ride itself, but the  screams. They can be heard from quite a distance. Perhaps its something to do with the ride being on such high ground? But, unless you close the rides you will never get rid of the screams. Modify Oblivion all you want, it won't get rid of the screams, so the only options are A) alton build indoor coasters from now on, or B) they build much less thrilling rides and focus on being a more family/kiddy park.

I have to say realistically I think option B is the way M£rlin would go if the park couldn't operate as it does now. Rides are easy enough to relocate and its not like M£rlin don't have a great choice of other parks to put them in.

[Ripsaw Raver]

i dont think im breaking any rules by posting this here

ok this is the exact comment made by an unamed resisdent of alton and farley villiages when i stayed in there residence for my alton towers trip.

"The Ropers are a very influencial family and also very powerful, 90% of the local residents in this area have come to accept the conditions the park has produced and have now taken it into day to day life, Although one could say this is due to there lack of financial status. The Ropers who are good friends of mine have the Money-Power and Influence to take on the park and they did just because they can"  i replied but surely the could have saved alot of bother and time just letting it go, just as the other residents have done "But why should they, they have created a substantial boom in the area with there pottery buisiness which i believe inturn has helped the local comunity immensly". My Relpy.. What exactly as Alton Towers has done for local bus firms, shops, restaurants, pubs, taxis and ofcours B&BS and Hotels, to be honest Alton Towers has no doubt provided more income and publicity for the area than a pottery barn. "Factory Daniel it is a factory not a barn"  " Look at the end of the day The Ropers had everything they needed to take on this challenge and i will not carry this convosation on any longer this area is now off limits till the morning and i think you should go back to your room! Good Night!"      yes we can confirm The Ropers power is all consuming, bit like Nemmie although i think Nemmie would just back hand them with her claws. 

Final Word..have the Money-Power and Influence to take on the park and they did just because they can"

[Jammydodger]

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/21119 ... park_hours

THIS is a genuine complaint. I have every bit of respect for these guys. They never oppose Thorpe's rides, or operating hours. They embrace the commerce and go along with it even if there is a certain level of annoyance. And I would hope Thorpe will ensure the late night opening causes as little noise as possible. They may have overreacted a little bit because obviously at this time there's no intention to open til 3am every night. But it just shows they genuinely are worried.

You then compare this to The Ropers. Its as though they've just locked on to Oblivion and said, "meh I don't like the look of that one, lets get it shut down haw haw haw". Their argument isn't even coherent. One minute they're against the rides and screams, the next they're moaning about concerts. They don't even mention the park opens later during October, which should be a major factor, but for some reason isn't. They have no mention of Spinball, which surely makes a hell of a lot of noise in comparison. There's little mention of traffic causing noise, which surely it does.

[MatthewR1990]

Has anyone actually stood by the Ropers household and listened to how much noise comes from the park? I absolutely refuse to believe that the noise is that bad. There is a lot of distance between the rides and there house and there are trees and vast spaces that will soak up the sound, I can't imagine the noise to be any worse than general traffic noise. And if there indoors surely double glazing will take all noise out completely? They seem like sad old couple with nothing better to do.

[smudge.]

As much as we know this for gospel, but they even LOOK like your typical, sad, old & bitter couple.

Fair enough they have earned their money fairly, but what a sad life you lead if you want to spend you're millions (and yes it could be) on pursuing an ongoing argument with a facility that thousands of people enjoy every day.

I for one, actually enjoy hearing people 'having fun' (unless its your parents bed squeaking of course) and it makes me think to what a very sad life they must lead.

I thought 'old' people were relaxed, but I imagine their money has made them uptight & arrogant, and fear this is ONLY about principle now.

One can only assume they have no children, or were that deprived as children, causing them to forget, or not know what its like to be young, but more importantly, HAPPY!

I can very much imagine she 'wares the trousers' so to speak, she looks vindictive and spiteful.

I don't think either party will 'win' from any court hearing anyway. This will just result in a compromise, leaving both parties unhappy & out of pocket.

[RustyRider]

I've not stood outside of their house as such, but I have enjoyed a few beers in the bulls head pub, Alton and you can hear nemesis' lift hill and blivvys brake run from the beer garden...which is 1.4 miles away from the towers!

I can see their point as in summer they'll be sat in their garden listening to constant screams just a few hundred yards away, to us we don't mind but if it isn't their sort of thing I'd imagine it can become quite a burden day in day out. I'm in no way condoning some of the actions they have taken (fireworks/concerts etc) but I do feel sympathy towards them for having the constant noise of Spinball and oblivion intruding in their lives when they dont want it...

[smudge.]

Agree in the main, but they don't even live there! Its not like they are subjected to it, they have a choice which house to be at. They could live in Farley the months of the year the towers are closed. They could go outside when the park shuts. Its not 100% of the time.

They get compensation, like most established houses receive compensation for any new road. ( noise )

And like new roads, Alton brings more than a lot to the community

[MatthewR1990]

Ahh ok fair enough. There not poor and there not stuck there by financial circumstances. They don't have kids that have to go to local schools or anything, they have nothing really tying them to that house. They are really making this a huge deal for what appears to be there own satisfaction at the media attention. Surely they understand that everybody knows and understands there situation, and yet nobody feels sympathy for them, Alton Towers have given so much to the community and the lives of thousands.

[Satch]

Being able to hear it is entirely different to it being excessive and illegal levels of noise. Go to another attraction in the Peak District, Dove Dale, and you can hear similar levels of noise from people enjoying themselves. I guess the difference here is this is a natural site of beauty, and Alton a towers is man made

[garyh]

Thing is, if the noise was a problem, then surely the people living around the Ropers would also be complaining.  Its not as if they are the only house in the area which would be affected by the noise.  Either the neighbours are staying quiet because they cant afford to sue the Towers, or they are not bothered by the noise.  If Alton Towers were to call the neighbours of the Ropers to the High Court and get them to testify the noise isnt a problem, then its case closed....

[CoasterCrazyChris]

NIMBY: The Ride