Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (**contains spoilers**)

Satch · Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:34 pm

Buy wanting to do something and actually producing something different does not in my eyes deserve praise.

They could want to have built Tower of Terror, but they certainly haven't. There is a missing connection between what management want and what is actually conceived. This needs to be addressed, rather than patted on the head saying "well at least you tried"

Dormiens-Dave · Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:46 pm

At the end of the day the comments on this ride have mostly praised the good theming and recognized the potential. But you cannot say something is good just because they gave it a go. If and when they fix the problems the ride will get better reviews, and one thing is for certain... its getting a more positive responce on here than its getting from the General Public.

Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:51 pm

Does anyone know many more info about the improvements or changes yet?

Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:54 pm

Mattia wrote: I reckon/hope over the next few weeks Alton will improve it. Unlike charlie which is restricted by various laws and IP restraints, Alton are free to tweak and modify this as much as they want and need to.

Charlie is in many ways exactly like Sub-Terra, it has rediculous amounts of potential sitting in plain view.
The elements of that ride that need tweeking ande modifying arn't related to the IP, as all the copyrighted media that is needed is in the building, they just havn't put it together properly.

With a bit of technical wizzardry the ride could easily be turned around over night.

But I suppose that's really a discussion for another topic.

Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:56 pm

also i don't think i have seen a positive response from other forum rooms,

tbh i think its gone past the point were they can drastically change this to make the experience better well not until closed season and then i doubt it wil

Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:57 pm

But the problem is, everyone is so quick to look at the filtered picture and instantly point the finger direct at Merlin or Alton when we don't fully know the reasons behind it not being the end product we all expected. We see this filtered picture, not the entire canvas.

If this was how it was planned to be, then I agree Satch - we can't just pat them on the head.

However, if the end product has been intended to be something completely different but for whatever reason this hasn't come to light then yes, I'd rather encourage and be hopeful then just jump down their throat more and more. This is the problem, I feel we're too quick to criticise.

I hold my hands up, I was seriously annoyed when I found out basically "Extremis" was the new for 2012 ride; I was seriously annoyed when I found out Nemesis slapped on the front of it's name suddenly made it awesome; I was seriously annoyed when opening day came along and to be honest slightly embarrassed for Alton.

But then stepping back and realising something has gone seriously wrong made me instantly change my out-look.

Nearly the whole management team have changed over 2010/2011/2012 and this year is the first year the brand new team get their "air time". I really can't seem them wanting to produce a half arsed attempt at a drop ride regardless of budget. Something's gone wrong. Naturally when there is a new team somewhere, they want to start with a bang and a whole "look at us!" kind of image and also great pressure to perform. The new marketing is just a starting point to see that's what they want (maybe a bit too much). Sub-Terra is clearly meant to be something very different to what we have. So yes, they have tried, yes it has failed but no, it isn't time to go and bash every management person on the head but instead try and figure out what went wrong in the first place and have every faith they will address the problem sooner rather then never.

Squiggles, I agree, with the right batching and the right timing and usage of Charlie they could easily creat a top ride, but they fail. But yes, suppose that needs to be discussed somewhere else. I'm just relating back to Charlie on how it took a whole year to even get the slightest update inside that building, yet with Sub:Terra it's happening now which is definitely far more positive.

Dormiens-Dave · Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:12 pm

Noone is saying Nemesis Sub-Terra is currently as they wanted it and im fully aware that management are not happy with what was delivered but that still boils down to bad project management from someone in the park.

Alton have to take the blame for this as its their product, just as they take the praise for Ice Age.

That said i do find some people on these forums do go negative for the sake of it. There is lots to like about it.

Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:31 pm

Dormiens-Dave wrote: Noone is saying Nemesis Sub-Terra is currently as they wanted it and im fully aware that management are not happy with what was delivered but that still boils down to bad project management from someone in the park.

I'm not saying that's what people are saying. What I mean is that everyone seems to be finding any opportunity to really slate this to the high heavens when it becomes quite harsh. No, it's not the most amazing end product and how they allowed this to go "live" in it's current state is beyond me. But whilst everyone is entitled to their own opinion it does go too far. It's good to hear management are fully aware of the issues and I hope they get addressed soon. But instead of us waiting to nit pick we should just wait until the final product (which should have been ready on Saturday) is actually ready before getting teeth into it.

Dormiens-Dave wrote: Alton have to take the blame for this as its their product, just as they take the praise for Ice Age.

Of course they do and the fact they have gone silent on every accessible public platform is awful and beyond me! But at the same time it's turning into a more intense time than when Thirteen was first launched. Jesus, thank god that's calmed down. :P

But seriously, I think whilst Alton are clearly flawed in the way they're handling this situation - there is just no fairness and hardly any respect for them to be allowed to get this right.

Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:34 pm

Out of interest a few day's ago I did a review of opening day that included a ride walkthrough. Since then I've been tweaking this walkthrough and have almost re-written it as a theoretical “how I would have done it” using only the effects that are currently in place and without sacrificing the throughput. When I can get around to finishing it I'll post it later and you guys can judge it to see if making these simple changes the ride can still be salvaged.

Dormiens-Dave · Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:35 pm

I can think of 5 members where that is true but 90% of members have given it a fair balanced review and will i am sure praise any improvement. I don't agree that people cant critisise the ride as it opened as thats what the public are doing... much harsher than we are.

Big Dave · Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:07 pm

Just a quick review from today. SOME effects were working today and I must admit, it did add a bit to the ride experience, but the ride itself is still far too short. The ride also suffered a fairly major delay and was closed for some time. I think it did reopen later in the day though. I think its going to be a ride that will take some serious tweaking, but it still can be something special, if the park are prepared to spend time and money working on it.

Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:14 pm

On a day when Merlin announces a healthy increase in profit, it makes you even more irritated to think about how much they've scrimped and rushed on this whole thing.

The choice of ride system was a tight-fisted and cheap option, but I think we were all hoping for elaborate theming and great atmosphere to counteract that.

They have not "tried really hard" with this at all, that's the point and the reason for everyone's anger.

Based on evidence in the last couple of years, they run the business in a way that can never compete with the Tussauds era. They have nice ideas and amazing concept art, but the actual delivery of things is poor. Artistic direction is always going to be compromised when the department is operated as a separate entity.

Dormiens-Dave · Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:16 pm

I think it could be great and i do think they want it to be good, i just hope they increase the ride time dispite reducing capacity.

And Tom im sorry i respect your oppinion but i have no idea what your problem is with the internal theming as its really quite good.

Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:21 pm

"Dormiens-Dave:

...and will i am sure praise any improvement."

Will.i.am likes it?! I'm sold!!

Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:37 pm

Dormiens-Dave wrote: And Tom im sorry i respect your oppinion but i have no idea what your problem is with the internal theming as its really quite good.

The best way I think of describing it is imagining how much better it could have been, as opposed to thinking it could have been much worse - which obviously it could have.

I see the same sort of fall-shorting that we saw in the Thirteen crypt and backwards section. Imagine how much great that could have been with effects etc.

Just things like a small stationary egg that flips upside down when out of view to a cracked one disappoint me greatly in an attraction that is supposed to be quite unnerving.

I LOVE the concept of this ride as I did Thirteen/the Dark Forest concept, but I just think execution is outrageously tight fisted on both.

Dormiens-Dave · Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:50 pm

If your talking about effects then i can see your point, but the static theming is fantastic.

Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:01 pm

Much of it is, but much of it isn't in my view.

I was watching a video of London's Extremis earlier and I'm sure the brake zone of the tower on that seems shorter, making the freefall section seem longer than Sub-Terra's.

I understand all of the Extremis and Sub-Terra towers are six metres high?

Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:16 pm

There's currently a shortened 10 second advert running on Sky 1...

Basically comes up with a couple of images, looks a bit of a hash job compared to the main advert.

Dormiens-Dave · Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:36 pm

Tom G wrote: Much of it is, but much of it isn't in my view.

I was watching a video of London's Extremis earlier and I'm sure the brake zone of the tower on that seems shorter, making the freefall section seem longer than Sub-Terra's.

I understand all of the Extremis and Sub-Terra towers are six metres high?

They have a drop of around 6 meters, though i think the floor on the Sub-Terra system is causing more air resistance therefore it feels like a less forceful drop.

I really can't find a fault in the internal theming of Terry that you wont find on most dark rides. It really looks visually great, it just doesn't do anything dynamic with that environment. Hopefully that will change.

Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:03 pm

As I can't really be bothered to trawl through 42 pages, can the people who liked the ride please post now so I know if I'm not the only one...

It's fine, it fulfils being a scary ride to some people, it has good theming, the staff were good, it was suitably silly and I came off 3 times with a smile on my face...

It's not brilliant, but not utter crap either... And it seems further tweaking will keep happening until it reaches a certain point...

Remember, Hex was badly received when it first opened, and now it's loved... Considering it's a different approach the park is taking to a ride, you cannot truly expect them to get it right first time, even with as much research and stuff beforehand, you never know until it's available to the masses...

I heard mixed reviews from others today, some good, some bad as per, but no ride can please everyone...