Wicker Man - General Discussion

[Danny]

Now John Wardley has retired and not consulting on what attractions should be brought to the park I do think Merlin will go in another direction. John thought up rides too far advanced and hes a very intelligent man. I would rather have quality rides than world first elements but that is me.

It has been known that AT have asked John Wardley's opinions and thoughts on possible new attractions at the park since his retirement. Now John was never the one who wanted worlds firsts. John wanted to build good rides, but Nick Varney kept pushing him to come up with these concepts for worlds firsts and records. If you look at some of John's work outside of Merlin (PA) you will see that he makes brilliant rides that do not have any records of firsts.

[NemesisRider]

Even John Wardley says his best ride was not a world first, Nemesis.

Still, on The Smiler, I think going for the most upside downs on a single ride gave Alton Towers a ride the size of a larger American ride that has attracted lots of visitors. That "world first" did work well, it put AT in the record books.

Realistically, somewhere was going to beat Colossus in the next few years.

[Coasterfellow]

Coasterfellow, that is quite harsh. Some of their SW's have been amazing, just look at Blivvy and Air!

I didn't say that the sw's weren't amazing. I think that oblivion, air, the smiler and even thirteen are all awesome roller coasters. What i was trying to say is that the ride does not need to be a world first or record breaker to be marketable and a good ride.

[fillc85]

I know what you guys mean about the World Firsts getting old. Even though Nemesis wasn't a world first it is the themeing that sets it apart.

I think AT need to concentrate on spending more money on the themeing of SW8 and do it well. The cost of a coaster that is already available rather than spending a fortune on something because its a worlds first.

Mr Wardley may well have already had his input on SW8 wasn't it meant to be done before the Smiler?

[sw7nutter]

Themeing doesnt add anything to a ride. The ride layout is what makes a ride good. As proven by six flags and cedar fair. They spend next to none on themeing but have amazing rides. Good themeing is very expensive, for example $100 million for expidition everest. Merlin dont have that sort of budget for SW8 so they would be better off spending the full £25million on track layout and a small amount on marketing.

[NemesisRider]

Nemesis did well because of layout, yes, but also because of theme and the whole ride in general.

There are two opposites, a ride like Raptor at Cedar point, intense with quite a good layout but no theming, or a ride like The Swarm, heavily themed with a decent layout but very expensive.

Personally, I would prefer another ride like the Swarm, very well themed, decent track layout and B&M.

[fillc85]

Themeing doesnt add anything to a ride. The ride layout is what makes a ride good. As proven by six flags and cedar fair. They spend next to none on themeing but have amazing rides. Good themeing is very expensive, for example $100 million for expidition everest. Merlin dont have that sort of budget for SW8 so they would be better off spending the full £25million on track layout and a small amount on marketing.

I personnaly do not agree with your comment. Alton Towers is a theme park. Six Flags are amusement parks and as such dont really have any themeing.

For me I love the theme of a ride its what sets it apart from all the other coasters of the same type. A theme givea the ride a personality and offers more of an experience than just a tall coaster in car park, which there is nothing wrong with. Universal and Disney are masters at this and can spend £100million plus to achieve it and Disney's attention to detail is second to none.

Alton Towers themes are good but they don't have the money other parks do but that said they still achieve very good results for their budgets and very unique themes.

[Georgie]

Yeah, fillc took the words out of my mouth. If you ask me, Alton have missed a trick here. They're acting like worlds firsts are a nessesity but the Smiler was sold almost on the Theme alone. I feel like that is the path Merlin should be taking: focus on an amazing ride that uses an intresting story as the selling point for the public instead of forced gimmicks. Attention to detail in themeing can strongly increase the appeal of a park and improve the experience so much. Just look at the top 2 most visited parks in Europe: Disney and Europa. Both are extremely well maintained and both have exeptional theming throughout

[Sr88]

I'm not overly fussed about theming, but I do like it. It also helps with marketing.

[Altontowersbarlow]

Themeing doesnt add anything to a ride. The ride layout is what makes a ride good..

I disagree with your first statement. The storyline and atmosphere of a ride are major factors that go towards creating an overall enjoyable ride experience. The rides in America might be colossal and also hold a range of impressive records but the lack of theming does appear to dampen the rides experience somewhat. I think there is a smaller identity to a ride that does not accommodate theming and the ride simply becomes another statistic or record. A ride with no theming is less likely to be remembered by the rider years after their initial visit because they can not reminisce about the build-up and atmosphere of the ride. Rides with minimal theming also lack interaction. A ride on a flat surface with no near misses or any noticeable theming would likely be remembered as a "good" ride with minimal character and no lasting impact. I agree that Merlin do not have an extensive budget compared to the American theme parks however I feel; The Swarm, Thirteen, Nemesis, RMT, Nemesis Inferno, Colossus and Saw: The Ride all have acceptable theming elements that adds to their ride experience. Another company that shows the importance of theming is Disney. The Disney Theme Parks would be considerably less popular if they had no theming therefore I think Merlin should make sure they keep investing in theming.

[sw7nutter]

I think themeing is worthless. I would much prefer massive rides with great elements and high throughput than a ride which is just well themed. Rollercoasters should be easy to sell, you quite simply say new coaster here and then gate figures will rise. No need for an expensive theme around them. Good example would be stealth and rita. Minimal themeing which adds nothing to the ride but a probably the most remembered rides (maybe not rita, but definitely stealth).

[fillc85]

I think themeing is worthless. I would much prefer massive rides with great elements and high throughput than a ride which is just well themed. Rollercoasters should be easy to sell, you quite simply say new coaster here and then gate figures will rise. No need for an expensive theme around them. Good example would be stealth and rita. Minimal themeing which adds nothing to the ride but a probably the most remembered rides (maybe not rita, but definitely stealth).

Thats why Rita annoys the hell out of me lol. Its a good ride but not themed to the area. Thirteen you could tie in loosly to Hex as the gypsy woman who cast the curse. But then whats Rita to anything lol

[Altontowersbarlow]

I think theming is worthless.

There will always be exceptions in the theme park community, however as a general aspect I think theming is widely important. I agree that there has to be a natural balance between standards in theming and track layouts however I do not believe that theming is worthless as it vastly improves the overall experience of rides. Do you think Disney would be as popular without theming aspects that create the "magic" atmosphere which many families purely visit for? In conclusion, I think it is important that Alton Towers continue to install consistent theming within their SW projects.

[sw7nutter]

Some themeing can be good. However i would much prefer them to spend the money on track as at the end of the day a theme doesn't make it more fun. I don't go to a theme park to look at the pretty building and be told some random story which loosely relates to a pile of steel. I go to Theme Parks for the rides. I will agree that coasters stuck in a car park are out of place and could have a little more to show the creator cared about looks and location but thats all a ride needs.

[NemesisRider]

If they theme something, they should theme it well.
My favourite pieces of theming are:
1. The Swarm's first plane wing
2. The Marmaliser on The Smiler
3. The blood river on Nemesis

If AT do anything like these (particularly the wing) for SW8 I will be a happy person.

[Sr88]

I'd choose theming over no theming, but a good themeless ride over a poor one with a theme.

[Coasterfellow]

I think themeing is worthless.

Disneyland Paris is a park who relies on their second to none themeing to get people through the gates. In 2013, 14 million people visited DLP so I would say that themeing is far from worthless

[sw7nutter]

Maybe i should rephrase my statement to themeing is worthless unless done properally. Merlin dont have the budgets for proper like universal or disney so they should stick to the cedar fair/ six flags approach. Disney and universal will also bring in alot of people from IP's and the atmosphere rather than rides whereas merlin are more ride based. I would mcuh prefer an amazing ride layout than a ride with meh themeing and a stupid worlds first. 13 for example has a stupid worlds first, pointless themeing and a bad ride layout. The smiler could have been much better if they spent a lot lot more on themeing, they didnt so the end result imo seems a bit pointless and a waste of money. Theme doesnt add to the ride experince that much, its just a coaster and a giant concrete block.

[118hazaman]

The smiler could have been much better if they spent a lot lot more on themeing, they didnt so the end result imo seems a bit pointless and a waste of money.

I thought that the Smiler theming was good for what it is. Being one of the most compact roller coasters in the world doesn't leave a lot of room for other objects. Granted more could have been done, both to the outside of the station and hut like things shown in the plans along the layout. But the marmaliser is amazing. The screens, the size, the legs, just image the ride without it. No near misses, and no 'weirdly scary' video in the queue, and no music. It's not the same without theming. As well as the fact theming gives people something to do, or look at while queuing.

[NemesisRider]

I totally agree. Probably, without The Marmaliser, some people in the Smiler queue would be bored out of their minds.

Also, if The Smiler had more theming, it would take up more space and in my opinion look worse.