#-o
Anyone up for a tussauds return?
Ticket prices up again.
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AstroDan
This isn't a case of Tussauds or Merlin. This is a case of somebody scratching around SO hard for every last penny out of guests. Complete desperation!
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Thom
- Member
- Posts: 606
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:21 pm
- Location: Leeds
Personally, I think Alton's pricing tatics over the past few years and their clear need for additional profit has caught up with them.
It's extremely clear that not many people would pay almost £40 for a ticket, although I'm sure many £39.60 tickets have been sold so far this season, the vast majority of ticket sales are no doubt either online bookings (at £31 a ticket approx) and vouchers (the vast majority working out at around £20 a ticket approx).
Online booking prices have risen from £24 to £31 in the past five years and their heavy promotion on Alton's official site, as well as third party sites, plus the added incentive of Early Ride Time now, will mean that the percentage of the guests booking this way/paying this much would have no doubt increased a fair amount in this time. I think £31 is the ticket price Alton really want each visitor to pay to give them a good amount of profit per visitor, hence the ERT incentive.
BOGOF Voucher prices have risen from £15 to £20.40 in the past five years. Each time the entrance price has increased £1 or so everyone wasn't massively bothered as 'no-one pays the full price anyway' but of course every time the price goes up £1, BOGOF tickets are 50p extra each. Personally, I think it's been identified that £20 or so simply isn't enough from each ticket to generate enough profit.
Merlin/Alton have got themselves in a hole now it seems, BOGOF offers no doubt work very well and get people to come but they can't seem to get enough revenue by halving the ticket price for every visitor. Therefore, they can't get rid of BOGOFs, but nor can they simply keep wacking the ticket price up as that makes the park insanely expensive and bad value in many eyes.
The past year has basically seen Merlin trying to get overall ticket revenues up whilst making their prices still appear as low as possible, hence the whole VAT debacle and now this tax on vouchers/offers.
I thought the price list at the start of the year looked confusing enough, but now we have a special on-the-day price too?
Merlin just need to give up the ridiculous pricing structure ASAP. Lose the VAT madness (if you really have to keep it in, simply do something like: £10 (includes £2 VAT) rather than the barrage of sums and odd-numbers for people to stare at and revert the pricing structure to something nice and simple. Make it £40 on-the-day and then reduce the online price to £25 to get more people booking online with much more revenue than using vouchers. Then, next year, ditch the BOGOFs and just stick £25 entry vouchers everywhere.
Thom
PS - Notice how now EVERY guest at the theme park has received some sort of discount on their entry ticket? This is definitely a case for Trading Standards (Watchdog have no power, we'd just get a bland statement from Merlin)
PPS - Noticed how the signs displaying the 'special' £39.60 entry price don't have a VAT breakdown like the rest of the prices? I thought Merlin wanted to communicate to us how much we were giving the government? Clearly they're starting to run out of stream on this front...
It's extremely clear that not many people would pay almost £40 for a ticket, although I'm sure many £39.60 tickets have been sold so far this season, the vast majority of ticket sales are no doubt either online bookings (at £31 a ticket approx) and vouchers (the vast majority working out at around £20 a ticket approx).
Online booking prices have risen from £24 to £31 in the past five years and their heavy promotion on Alton's official site, as well as third party sites, plus the added incentive of Early Ride Time now, will mean that the percentage of the guests booking this way/paying this much would have no doubt increased a fair amount in this time. I think £31 is the ticket price Alton really want each visitor to pay to give them a good amount of profit per visitor, hence the ERT incentive.
BOGOF Voucher prices have risen from £15 to £20.40 in the past five years. Each time the entrance price has increased £1 or so everyone wasn't massively bothered as 'no-one pays the full price anyway' but of course every time the price goes up £1, BOGOF tickets are 50p extra each. Personally, I think it's been identified that £20 or so simply isn't enough from each ticket to generate enough profit.
Merlin/Alton have got themselves in a hole now it seems, BOGOF offers no doubt work very well and get people to come but they can't seem to get enough revenue by halving the ticket price for every visitor. Therefore, they can't get rid of BOGOFs, but nor can they simply keep wacking the ticket price up as that makes the park insanely expensive and bad value in many eyes.
The past year has basically seen Merlin trying to get overall ticket revenues up whilst making their prices still appear as low as possible, hence the whole VAT debacle and now this tax on vouchers/offers.
I thought the price list at the start of the year looked confusing enough, but now we have a special on-the-day price too?
Merlin just need to give up the ridiculous pricing structure ASAP. Lose the VAT madness (if you really have to keep it in, simply do something like: £10 (includes £2 VAT) rather than the barrage of sums and odd-numbers for people to stare at and revert the pricing structure to something nice and simple. Make it £40 on-the-day and then reduce the online price to £25 to get more people booking online with much more revenue than using vouchers. Then, next year, ditch the BOGOFs and just stick £25 entry vouchers everywhere.
Thom
PS - Notice how now EVERY guest at the theme park has received some sort of discount on their entry ticket? This is definitely a case for Trading Standards (Watchdog have no power, we'd just get a bland statement from Merlin)
PPS - Noticed how the signs displaying the 'special' £39.60 entry price don't have a VAT breakdown like the rest of the prices? I thought Merlin wanted to communicate to us how much we were giving the government? Clearly they're starting to run out of stream on this front...
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Satch
Interestingly, I happened across the "Pricing Practices Guide" issued by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.
Whilst they are only guidelines, and traders are not legally obliged to follow these, the following points can be shown where Towers are in breach of these and thus are breaching Fair Trading Standards:
Whilst they are only guidelines, and traders are not legally obliged to follow these, the following points can be shown where Towers are in breach of these and thus are breaching Fair Trading Standards:
1.1 Price comparisons generally
1.1.1 The CPRs prohibit traders from giving false or misleading information, or
omitting material information, about price or the manner of calculation of the price for
a product, where this causes or is likely to cause the average consumer to take a
transactional decision he would not otherwise have taken. If you choose to make
price comparisons, you should therefore be able to justify them, and to show that any
claims you make are accurate and valid – in particular, that any price advantage
claimed is real.
1.3.2 You should not allow an offer to run on so long that it becomes misleading to
describe it as an ‘introductory’ or other ‘special offer’. What is a reasonable period
will depend on the circumstances (but, depending on the shelf-life of the product, it is
likely to be a matter of weeks, not months). In general, you should state the date
the offer will end and keep to it – you should note that one of the practices which is
banned by the CPRs in all circumstances is providing false information about limited
availability. If you do extend the offer period, you should make it clear to the
consumer that you have done so.
1.4 Comparisons with prices related to different circumstances
1.4.1 Comparisons should be fair and reasonable. You should compare like with
like or with very similar products in terms of quality, composition and description.
If there is a difference, then an unambiguous, easily identifiable and clearly legible
explanation of the difference(s) should be given. This section covers comparisons
with prices:
(a) for different quantities (for example "15p each, 4 for 50p");
(b) for goods in a different condition (for example "seconds £20, when perfect £30");
(c) for a different availability (for example "price £50, normally to special order only at
£60");
(d) for goods in a different state (for example "price in kit form £50, price ready-
assembled £70"); or
(e) for special groups of people (for example "senior citizens' price £2.50, others
£5").
Different circumstances: General
1.4.2 If you make comparisons with prices related to different circumstances, the
product should be available in the different quantity, conditions etc at the price you
quote. You should make clear to consumers the different circumstances which
apply, and show them prominently with the price indication. Use of any acronym
which may not be commonly understood should be explained - see para. 1.1.6.
1.10 Free offers and similar promotions
1.10.1 You should note that one of the practices which is banned by the CPRs
in all circumstances is describing a product as “free”, “without charge” or similar,
when the consumer has to pay anything other than the unavoidable cost of
responding to the commercial practice and collecting or paying for the delivery of the
item.
1.10.2 You should make clear to consumers, at the time of the offer for sale,
exactly what they will have to do to get the "free” or “reduced price” offer. For
example if any sort of direct payment is required such as postal or delivery charges,
or if some number of tokens have to be collected, you should make this clear.
1.10.3 If you give any indication of the monetary value of the offer, and that
sum is not your own present price for the product, you should have regard to
whichever of sections 1.2 to 1.6 covers the type of price it is.
1.10.4 If there are any conditions that are part of the offer, you should give at
least the main points of those conditions with the price indication and make clear to
consumers, before they are committed to buy, where they can get full details of the
conditions.
1.10.5 You should not claim that an offer is free if:
(a) you have imposed additional charges that you would not normally make;
(b) you have inflated the price of any product the consumer must buy or any
incidental charges (for example, postage or premium rate telephone charges) which
the consumer must pay to get the "free” or “reduced price” product; or
(c) you will reduce the price to consumers who do not take it up.
2.1 Indicating two different prices
2.1.1 The CPRs prohibit traders from giving misleading information about prices,
which could include indicating a price for goods or services which is lower than the
one that actually applies, where this would cause, or be likely to cause, the
consumer to take an different transactional decision. In many cases, a different
transactional decision is likely to mean whether or not to buy a product, but it could
include other decisions taken about transactions.
You could forgive 1, maybe even 2...Valued Added Tax (VAT)
(i) Price indications to consumers
2.2.9 All price indications you give to consumers, by whatever means, should
include VAT. This total price must be displayed prominently so that consumers can
see it.
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captain
- Member
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- Location: Manchester
Excellent Satch. They really are idiots.
My favourite is this one, when applying it to the Buy one, get one free offer:
And all of last season their VAT campaign was illegal, shown by
Rob - we're all on this forum because in one way or another we love the park. However, supporting every decision they make, such as this "clever" one as you put it, is ludicrous. They are ruining a wonderful park, letting it decay and charging ever more for it, whilst providing a less and less enjoyable day out. This decision is simply one of many which enforces every negative they provide. It can be a nice place to visit - it's in a beautiful setting and has at least one world-class ride. But I will go elsewhere when parking is £6, a "free" ticket is over £20, I'm harrassed throughout the park to buy more, they oversell fasttrack and cause even bigger queues, their marketing is infuriating and wrong, everything inpark is outrageously expensive if you decide to pay for it, their new ultimate coaster is anything but, and they increase ticket prices mid-season as well as off-season and have absolutely nothing to show for it (and don't bring up that kids show, because if that is what counts as a good show in a world class park to the management, then somebody show them Efteling's recent efforts, or frankly any of their European competitors).
For me, the atmosphere at the park has been destroyed by a succession of terrible management decisions. It isn't a bad park, and obviously has better coasters than the majority of parks in the UK, but I will enjoy other places more, such as LWV, which has a fantastic atmosphere even if the rides aren't the best. It's not always about the rides - they don't make the park. They only enhance it. Everything else at AT has fallen by the wayside, and the rides are suffering now too cough Oblivion cough.
[quote=""Rob""] and things like this may bring in significantly more money which at the end of they day will be reinvested into the park for future attractions.[/quote]Ha! Hilarious. Honestly, I've tried to explain their business plan so many times, which means that the park will lose almost all of its operating profit. Please see this post for more information.
My favourite is this one, when applying it to the Buy one, get one free offer:
They've broken every single one of those guidelines.1.10.5 You should not claim that an offer is free if:
(a) you have imposed additional charges that you would not normally make;
(b) you have inflated the price of any product the consumer must buy or any
incidental charges (for example, postage or premium rate telephone charges) which
the consumer must pay to get the "free” or “reduced price” product; or
(c) you will reduce the price to consumers who do not take it up.
And all of last season their VAT campaign was illegal, shown by
Like Diogo, I won't be visiting this year. I have limited money and patience, and will be visiting Drayton for the first time. My girlfriend, non-enthusiast, would also rather go to Drayton or Flamingo Land over Towers. We visited AT 3 times last year, but each visit was less and less enjoyable, and the shadow of upselling and continuous expenditure seemed to increase. Our trip to FL, whilst consisting of quite a lot of queueing due to poor throughputs, featured no upselling, and was considerably cheaper. The only downside was no Nemesis.All price indications you give to consumers, by whatever means, should include VAT.
Rob - we're all on this forum because in one way or another we love the park. However, supporting every decision they make, such as this "clever" one as you put it, is ludicrous. They are ruining a wonderful park, letting it decay and charging ever more for it, whilst providing a less and less enjoyable day out. This decision is simply one of many which enforces every negative they provide. It can be a nice place to visit - it's in a beautiful setting and has at least one world-class ride. But I will go elsewhere when parking is £6, a "free" ticket is over £20, I'm harrassed throughout the park to buy more, they oversell fasttrack and cause even bigger queues, their marketing is infuriating and wrong, everything inpark is outrageously expensive if you decide to pay for it, their new ultimate coaster is anything but, and they increase ticket prices mid-season as well as off-season and have absolutely nothing to show for it (and don't bring up that kids show, because if that is what counts as a good show in a world class park to the management, then somebody show them Efteling's recent efforts, or frankly any of their European competitors).
For me, the atmosphere at the park has been destroyed by a succession of terrible management decisions. It isn't a bad park, and obviously has better coasters than the majority of parks in the UK, but I will enjoy other places more, such as LWV, which has a fantastic atmosphere even if the rides aren't the best. It's not always about the rides - they don't make the park. They only enhance it. Everything else at AT has fallen by the wayside, and the rides are suffering now too cough Oblivion cough.
[quote=""Rob""] and things like this may bring in significantly more money which at the end of they day will be reinvested into the park for future attractions.[/quote]Ha! Hilarious. Honestly, I've tried to explain their business plan so many times, which means that the park will lose almost all of its operating profit. Please see this post for more information.
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Tom G
- Member
- Posts: 1642
- Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:09 pm
If you make comparisons with prices related to different circumstances, the
product should be available in the different quantity, conditions etc at the price you
quote.
Oh dear. Watch them #### themselves now and simply remove the 'special offer on the day price'. I project Wednesday at the latest
product should be available in the different quantity, conditions etc at the price you
quote.
Oh dear. Watch them #### themselves now and simply remove the 'special offer on the day price'. I project Wednesday at the latest
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gazag
i think the situation is simple to solve for merlin if they want the extra cash, ditch the BOGOF offers and just go for a simple £30 ticket to get in bringing it in ine with drayton manor and other theme parks and spen the extra bit of cash on advertisement. i cannot see a massive decrese in attendence because if people want to visit they will. ive always hated the BOGOF offers however when on the monorail if there is a couple sitting in the same place as me i will always ask if they have one and give them one if they havent
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Dormiens-Dave
BOGOF's are here to stay because as already said they provide almost free advertising, i have no issue with BOGOF's i just dont like the cheating they are doing to pull in extra revenue.
Also in regards to my support of Alton Towers i will always love it and support it... i still go and it will always have a special place in my heart as it has done for the near 22 years i have been visiting... Its just the direction the management are taking makes me fume.
If it was a place i didn't care about (like Drayton) i wouldn't be so vocal about it. The fact i care is the reason i'm so angry
Also in regards to my support of Alton Towers i will always love it and support it... i still go and it will always have a special place in my heart as it has done for the near 22 years i have been visiting... Its just the direction the management are taking makes me fume.
If it was a place i didn't care about (like Drayton) i wouldn't be so vocal about it. The fact i care is the reason i'm so angry
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haydn!
- Member
- Posts: 2191
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:41 pm
[quote=""captain""]And all of last season their VAT campaign was illegal, shown by
Not quite. They displayed prices with and without VAT. So, whilst potentially (or most likely) confusing it is still within the law as they're showing the total price you pay equally as clear.
On all the other counts. I say guilty as charged!
The unfortunate reality is that when this catches up with the park all they'll do is remove the lower 'special on the day price' and charge everyone the £40.80.
[/quote]All price indications you give to consumers, by whatever means, should include VAT.
Not quite. They displayed prices with and without VAT. So, whilst potentially (or most likely) confusing it is still within the law as they're showing the total price you pay equally as clear.
On all the other counts. I say guilty as charged!
The unfortunate reality is that when this catches up with the park all they'll do is remove the lower 'special on the day price' and charge everyone the £40.80.
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Nightfall
- Member
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- Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:10 am
- Location: Cambridge
This new system also plays another trick that I haven’t seen mentioned. If a group of 7 people turn up with BOGOFs then with the old system 1 of them will buy a ticket with the BOGOF and try to sell it to someone else. Now they’re stuck with a choice. Use the BOGOF, pay £1.20 more and hope you can find another odd group. Or pay the reduced price and don’t bother searching for another odd group, thus stopping the trade of tickets.
I know it seems obvious that most people will partner up before purchase or sacrifice the £1.20 but this will have an effect. Last time I visited with friends one of my group got in for half price by someone using a voucher on the off chance they could sell it to someone else. Now they might not bother.
I still can’t decide if this restriction stopping after sale trading is a good or bad thing. While after sales is technically wrong we have already established the real gate figure should be around the £30 mark not £40. The danger is that Alton could be planning on use this point in their defence if Watchdog calls them out.
“We only did this to stop people illegally selling on free tickets, honestly we aren’t trying to line are back pockets.”
I know it seems obvious that most people will partner up before purchase or sacrifice the £1.20 but this will have an effect. Last time I visited with friends one of my group got in for half price by someone using a voucher on the off chance they could sell it to someone else. Now they might not bother.
I still can’t decide if this restriction stopping after sale trading is a good or bad thing. While after sales is technically wrong we have already established the real gate figure should be around the £30 mark not £40. The danger is that Alton could be planning on use this point in their defence if Watchdog calls them out.
“We only did this to stop people illegally selling on free tickets, honestly we aren’t trying to line are back pockets.”
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WillPS
- Member
- Posts: 411
- Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:13 am
- Location: Sheffield/Nottingham
It just stinks. I'm glad trading standards are looking in to it, and I hope Watchdog do a fair bit too!
With regards to VAT - I think Merlin are missing a very obvious trick - sell their tickets via one of their European outlets.
Premium TV subscriptions (Sky Sports, Movies, ESPN etc.) are subject to VAT at 20% in the UK - but if you add these channels to your Sky or Virgin Media subscription you will see on your bill that you are in fact paying a company in Luxembourg (Virgin Media Entertainment s.a.r.l. in the case of VM) for these services. In Luxembourg, VAT on premium TV content is only 5%. Totally legal thanks to the open marketplace rules across the EU/EEC.
So why not change the legal setup such that your Alton Towers ticket is sold to you by, say, Heide Park, with the on-site ticketing staff acting as agents for them?
Seems a very straightforward way of circumnavigating UK VAT.
With regards to VAT - I think Merlin are missing a very obvious trick - sell their tickets via one of their European outlets.
Premium TV subscriptions (Sky Sports, Movies, ESPN etc.) are subject to VAT at 20% in the UK - but if you add these channels to your Sky or Virgin Media subscription you will see on your bill that you are in fact paying a company in Luxembourg (Virgin Media Entertainment s.a.r.l. in the case of VM) for these services. In Luxembourg, VAT on premium TV content is only 5%. Totally legal thanks to the open marketplace rules across the EU/EEC.
So why not change the legal setup such that your Alton Towers ticket is sold to you by, say, Heide Park, with the on-site ticketing staff acting as agents for them?
Seems a very straightforward way of circumnavigating UK VAT.
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Satch
The Ultimate Parent for Alton Towers and the Merlin group is a Luxemburg company. Would it be wrong to assume this is already done?
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Thom
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I presume by buying tickets at Alton Towers or altontowers.com you would be buying them from Alton Towers Resort Operations Ltd (registered address in Poole, UK), which in turn is fully owned by Merlin Entertainments Ltd (registered address in Poole, UK). So you would be buying tickets from a UK company.
I guess for online tickets at least they could easily set it up so you would be buying tickets from a Luxemburg comapny (get Merlin to set up Merlin Entertainments Ticket Processing s.a.r.l or similar) but they'd probs need to do quite a bit to have a Luxemburg registered company selling tickets at the gate.
Thom...
I guess for online tickets at least they could easily set it up so you would be buying tickets from a Luxemburg comapny (get Merlin to set up Merlin Entertainments Ticket Processing s.a.r.l or similar) but they'd probs need to do quite a bit to have a Luxemburg registered company selling tickets at the gate.
Thom...
Last edited by Thom on Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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WillPS
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[quote=""Thom""]I presume by buying tickets at Alton Towers or altontowers.com you would be buying them from Alton Towers Resort Operations Ltd (registered address in Poole, UK), which in turn is fully owned by Merlin Entertainments Ltd (registered address in Poole, UK). So you would be buying tickets from a UK company.
I guess for online tickets at least they could easily set it up so you would be buying tickets from a Luxemburg comapny (get Merlin to set up Merlin Entertainments Ticket Processing s.a.r.l or similar) but they'd probs need to do quite a bit to have a Luxemburg registered company selling tickets at the gate.
Thom...[/quote]
The format would have to be that Alton Towers Ticketing Ltd. were acting as an agent on behalf of Merlin Ticketing s.a.r.l.
When you actually pay your Sky/Virgin bill, you wont see a separate payment for the Luxembourg based services. In the case of Virgin, Virgin Media Payments Ltd. act as an agent for Virgin Media Entertainment s.a.r.l., both wholly owned divisions of Virgin Media plc.
It's all a bit of a misnomer though if I'm honest. If the VAT was taken away Merlin wouldn't freeze their exc. VAT prices - they'd quickly swallow of all/most of the difference and then some - just as they did when the VAT dropped in December 2008.
I guess for online tickets at least they could easily set it up so you would be buying tickets from a Luxemburg comapny (get Merlin to set up Merlin Entertainments Ticket Processing s.a.r.l or similar) but they'd probs need to do quite a bit to have a Luxemburg registered company selling tickets at the gate.
Thom...[/quote]
The format would have to be that Alton Towers Ticketing Ltd. were acting as an agent on behalf of Merlin Ticketing s.a.r.l.
When you actually pay your Sky/Virgin bill, you wont see a separate payment for the Luxembourg based services. In the case of Virgin, Virgin Media Payments Ltd. act as an agent for Virgin Media Entertainment s.a.r.l., both wholly owned divisions of Virgin Media plc.
It's all a bit of a misnomer though if I'm honest. If the VAT was taken away Merlin wouldn't freeze their exc. VAT prices - they'd quickly swallow of all/most of the difference and then some - just as they did when the VAT dropped in December 2008.
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Crofty
I don't see the point of trying to wriggle out of the VAT.
If every company tried to wriggle out of VAT then the government would just tax something else or raise VAT to make up the shortfall. We have to pay VAT and paying it isn't really the issue here. The main moan most people have regarding the VAT is the over the top and confusing manor that it's being presented in the pricing options by Merlin.
Merlin should stop whining on about the VAT, they probably only want it scrapped so that they can push prices up to the same level and keep more of the income. No other theme park seems to be that concerned. How many times have you heard someone say that they would love to visit Oakwood but the VAT is putting me off? Or, I quite fancy going to Frankie and Bennys but the 20% Tax is a right bummer
If every company tried to wriggle out of VAT then the government would just tax something else or raise VAT to make up the shortfall. We have to pay VAT and paying it isn't really the issue here. The main moan most people have regarding the VAT is the over the top and confusing manor that it's being presented in the pricing options by Merlin.
Merlin should stop whining on about the VAT, they probably only want it scrapped so that they can push prices up to the same level and keep more of the income. No other theme park seems to be that concerned. How many times have you heard someone say that they would love to visit Oakwood but the VAT is putting me off? Or, I quite fancy going to Frankie and Bennys but the 20% Tax is a right bummer
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Vicki
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Well I for one will be voting with my feet and will be encouraging friends to do the same. I'm guessing the price difference will apply to those buying tickets for a guest with a disability and their carers, and that's "technically" discounted.
It would really scrape the bottom of the barrel if that's the case, but unfortunately, wouldn't surprise me
It would really scrape the bottom of the barrel if that's the case, but unfortunately, wouldn't surprise me
The Lonely end of the Rink- a great song, and it\'s usually the case when I go ice skating because I just can\'t keep up!
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MartynDav33
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- Location: Leeds
True enough for BOGOFs, but what about other offers? KP Snacks are doing half price entry vouchers on their crisp packets at the mo, the underhandedness seems more apparent with this than the BOGOFs!There's also the fact that anyone using a 2 for 1 voucher will be paying full price...they just happen to get a free ticket included. After all, it's a 2 for 1 offer, not a half price entry ticket.
I'm not entirely convinced that they're doing anything technically illegal because of the way they've done it but as already demonstrated it certainly goes against pretty much every fair trading guideline.
Let's hope their image and footfall suffer accordingly, not convinced they will though...
